Tuesday, June 12, 2007

REASON WHATEVER EVER WHY I HATE RELIGION











OK if you read my blog enough then you know I have this huge antagonism towards all religion's of the world. One thing that irks me, is the proclamation that all people are going to hell except the followers of that particular religion. What makes my antagonism flow into the hatred side of things (at times) in particular is this. Black people 90% of whom admit to being Christians make up roughly 13% of the population but make up.

  • 67 percent of all HIV cases amongst children.

  • black women make up 7% percent of the total population but are 70% of all new HIV cases in certain areas of the country.

  • Over 70% of all black kids are born out of wedlock.

  • Roughly half of all black kids are raised by single mothers with no help from the fathers(this has been going on for a long time)

  • A very high percentage of black homicide victims were raised in single parent homes.

  • A very high percentage of black men incarcerated were raised in single parent homes.


These statistics are not new information to the general black community most of us are aware of these sad statistics. Many of us grew up in homes and environments that lead straight to these negative statistics. If I know this, then so do the preachers, many of whom are brilliant individuals. But its not just because of those facts listed above that I am enraged at the black church.

I am also sore over the fact that black preachers are capable of motivating their flock to heights of emotionalism that other preachers aren't able to do. Its a gift that god has blessed us (black folk) with in my opinion. Also black church services are 70% longer than white church services but the preachers in our churches do not emphasize education, saving money, financial literacy, father hood specifically (but better parenting practices in the black community generally), community service to clean up the neighborhoods the churches are located in (where millions of black youth all over the country live and suffer in), debate and conflict resolution classes as much as they emphasize music which is less important than those other things I mentioned. Their are dozens of other progressive programs that the black church in general should be implementing 24x7 365 days of the year in the cause of progress for the African American community.

I am also furious at the black church for pushing fairy tales about aids being a curse by god against homosexuals when the bible absolutely doesn't state or imply this and Magic Johnson, Eazy E and author ashe all contracted it from ways other than homosexual activity over ten years ago. I am also furious at the thousands of brilliant and educated black church members who allow the preachers to high jack the spirituality of Christianity to push a retarded close minded agenda that has more to do with stroking the preachers vanity and signifying than helping and healing a sick and spiritually injured black American population. I cant understand why some of the more progressive members in every church don't confront the preachers on their BS and demand the church (preachers) demonstrate leadership in some of these areas where a good portion of the African American population are taking it on the chin.

Lastly I cannot for the life of me understand why the black church has not started advising blacks from the pulpit to use condoms when they know we are having premarital sex(which most folks do). They are all well aware of the fallout the black American population has suffered behind the birth of all of these kids to parents who were not ready a lot of whom who had no intention of modifying their behavior to become proactive and good parents. They are also aware of the fact that the majority of people of all races in America do not wait until they are married to have sex. In fact many black preachers come from backgrounds where they were once playboys and way too many of them have been caught in adulterous affairs or have had children out of wedlock but still they dont advise from the pulpit to use condoms if folks arent married.

The shenanigans of way too many black clergy is not something mysterious or unknown amongst the American black population.We all know what a lot of preachers did and are still doing, all's you gotta do is ask some of the ladies in the congregations of these Church's about the behavior of some of the preachers. Now I ain't saying that all black preachers and churches are crooked but folks in the black community know that our preachers are not puritans or pious in any way shape or form. All of us in the black community know that some of these preachers are involved in affairs and are well familiar with premarital sex on a personal level.

In spite of the fact that no one living can offer any single solitary shred of proof that the bible is accurate against all other religions, their is no proof that any of those folks in the bible waited until they were married to have sex ( in fact the bible is full of tales of adultery and other lust inspired stories) in spite of the bible's proclamation that having sex before marriage is a sin reality that I have always seen is that most people have no intention of waiting until marraige to have sex. The black preachers are insisting that the black American population stay true to an ideal of waiting until marriage to have sex when reality says that 90% of all Americans do not wait until marriage to have sex. Inspite of black people dying of aids in unacceptable #s a the church wont stand up and recommend strongly that black Americans use condoms if not married. They wont recomend condom use amongst unmarried black people when they know full well what is going on.

This I cannot understand, I really wish some christian, church member or black preacher would explain to me why the church has not advocated a policy of endorsing condom use amongst black Americans from the pulpit especially when they are fully aware of all of the suffering the black community is doing because of unplanned kids resulting from unprotected sex. I cannot understand why the black church and too many black Christians are allowed to get away with retarded behavior and ignoring the aids issue.

I really wish a christian or preacher would enlighten me on this topic.

42 comments:

Gardener Greg said...

Very good points and well made. I am a white male and feel that many churches, white and black are self serving and don't want to deal with the real issues at hand. I grew up in Daytona Beach Florida where racial riots were the norm and all the churches would address equality but none talked about education. I was one of the few whites back then that had black friends and could never understand why most of the blacks followed the teachings of the black panthers but didn't know who Mary Bethune was. For black history month, I suggested that my son do a report on her and no blacks in his classes knew who she was.

Great blog.
Greg

mark said...

Hello greg you use a terrific phrase which is the churches dont want to deal with the issue at hand. I dont care about them being self serving all humans are self serving to some degree I just want the churches to deal with real problems and issues looking them right in the face.

Hathor said...

It is interesting that Mary mother of Jesus became pregnant before marriage. At that time tongues wouldn't wag because she was betrothed to Joseph. I sure that people that knew her didn't exactly believe she was the mother of God. I am not all that knowledgeable of the bible, but I don't remember specific scripture about premarital sex. I also think the definition of whore, how it was translated means prostitute. There were rules about premarital sex, but I don't think an outright ban. Even if I am wrong, the church expects all of man to be sinners. In that aspect they should deal with the prospect of sin. Only violations of the Old Testament Ten Commandments were a capital offense. Why is that the followers of the New Testament require death as a punishment for sex? These churches actually expects every one to take a vow of celibacy without the structure of an environment to support it.

I have said before, it was never an really an issue until recently, most people were married shortly after puberty until the mid -twentieth century. A lot of blacks were perceived to be unmarried, but were in common law marriages, so you cannot go back and compare statistics in the past to now. That myth was perpetuated and became fulfilled when the welfare laws were written with that assumption. It was also a way to save the state money initially if you didn't have to help intact families. Nobody minded when the money was flowing what harm it was doing or that it was creating dependent generations, because it only effected blacks and "white trash."
That supporting rhetoric has to be, "take responsibility for your actions," from all possible fronts. It needs to be in the music, from athletic heroes, the church, the school, the community leaders and peers.
Sorry if I am rambling a bit.

Dave said...

Mark,
This is a troublesome topic in my mind, and if you had not brought it up, to be honest, I'd likely of avoided it, but since some things need to be said, let's say what we got to say!

Last year I took US History 211, and much to my surprise, I had a professor who was all about telling the truth behind a great many American lie. He supplemented the regular text with a book called After the Fact:The Art of Historical Detection and it was all about how you have to be skeptical when reading any historical accounts, and how you have to dig underneath the surface until you find the truth.

Anyways, in this book, it details how white christian ministers went about converting the enslaved, and I remember it making me feel physically ill when I read it. Do you realize that during the 17th and 18th centuries, American christians had two separate bibles? They had the one they'd been using all along, and they had a second version, one that was rewritten and edited to teach that black was inferior, and slavery was good, and the highest form of obedience to your god, is obedience to your master... this counterfeit bible they gave to the enslaved peoples. For over a century, we're talking four to five generations, black folk grew up being taught by the christians that god condoned slavery!!!

It makes me ILL to this day to even think about this. Do people not have any idea regarding what the chritian faith really is? Or where it has come from? Or how badly it has abused, accused, and used anyone it saw fit to denigrate? Is it ok to be a christian now, because they no longer condone slavery? Or is it that slavery has just taken on a new form?

I apologize Mark, I know this got off topic, but when I read this post of yours, you ignited an old fire in my gut.

mark said...

"Why is that the followers of the New Testament require death as a punishment for sex?"

mark bey: I have know Idea what makes it even more reprehensible is that black preachers do not follow the commandments involving sex anymore than anyone else in the black community. And they have the nerve to try to form an argument against advising the people to use condoms if they are not married and having sex. My argument has nothing to do with bashing people who arent married and having sex, or people who have kids they cant take care. My argument is this. Preachers dont wait the majority of americans dont wait, the majority of black americans are born out of wedlock, a black woman can count on a black male to take care of the kid half of the time(that aint good enough), the black community is being devestated by aids and their is no way they can say they dont know it because thier are 10 churches within a 5 minute radius of were I live and were I live thier are way too many people infected with aids. If I see it clearly the church sees it clearly to after all they provide social services for the community.

After all of that the church wont advise people who they know are having sex to strap up. It is sickening. They are ignoring the aids issue and still making up fairytales about aids.

Also ramble all you want hathor I vaulue your oppinion.

mark said...

"I read it. Do you realize that during the 17th and 18th centuries, American christians had two separate bibles?"

mark bey: That dosent supprise me Thier 23 different versions of the bible including the morman bible and the catholic bible. Not to mention the Islam and Judism all claiming to the word of god. All different all claiming only their version of god will lead you to heaven.
As far as Im concerned every religion is a fairytale. Now Im not saying that religion cant be a good thing but people have often done inhuman things discused as gods work. If only one religion is gods word then why would god allow other religions and interpretation of those religions to exist.

I could still deal with religion if only they didnt try to suppress truth/science, didnt try to force themselves on others with different beliefs and if they would give thoughtful advise based on the current realities.

But they dont do this they would rather people who they know are already gonna sin (according to god)have sex before marraige die of aids before advising the black population to use protection always if you arent married. Its disguting.

mark said...

"I read it. Do you realize that during the 17th and 18th centuries, American christians had two separate bibles?"

mark bey: That dosent supprise me Thier 23 different versions of the bible including the morman bible and the catholic bible. Not to mention the Islam and Judism all claiming to the word of god. All different all claiming only their version of god will lead you to heaven.
As far as Im concerned every religion is a fairytale. Now Im not saying that religion cant be a good thing but people have often done inhuman things discused as gods work. If only one religion is gods word then why would god allow other religions and interpretation of those religions to exist.

I could still deal with religion if only they didnt try to suppress truth/science, didnt try to force themselves on others with different beliefs and if they would give thoughtful advise based on the current realities.

But they dont do this they would rather people who they know are already gonna sin (according to god)have sex before marraige die of aids before advising the black population to use protection always if you arent married. Its disguting.

Bygbaby said...

"One thing that irks me, is the proclamation that all people are going to hell except the followers of that particular religion." Amen to that! I am with you on this post big time. My religion makes it ok for me to watch porno, drink, cuss, judge others without guilt & I do not have to pay tithes. It called Bygbabynism. I lost my religion last year but recently started to feel more comfortable talking about.

Peace,
Bygbaby

Bronzetrinity said...

Even when I was a little kid I saw how inconsistent things were in the Bible. I don't believe in religions and I don't think anyone will ever convince me unless they have uncontrovertable proof that that stuff is real. I believe in philosophy and ways to view life like Buddhism (but I don't know all of it, just some basics). I don't believe in any magical or miraculous things. They just don't make sense and I can't believe that to this day people are so adamant that religions are true and written by God or something. Besides, the whole Christian religion came from the Book of the Dead and ancient Egyptian writings where the original Joseph was Osirus, the original Mary was Isis, and the original Jesus was Horus, all Black Egyptians. Then the story was brought to Europe and changed to what we have today. Its all bs.

mark said...

@ bybaby

"My religion makes it ok for me to watch porno, drink, cuss, judge others without guilt & I do not have to pay tithes."

mark bey: Sounds like your religion is the religion many christians are currently practicing. I know lots of christians who participate in the behaviors you just described.

My problem is not with religion per se but with the fact that most religions encourage some non progressive attitudes and behaviors.

The members, preacher and the entire community knows most people have sex before marraige, in my community their are people walking past and into the churches for aid every day and the preachers who know about all of the results from unprotected sex in the form of aids and fatherless children still these jokers wont advise the entire black community to use protection.

To be honest that is not all it will take to stop the spread of aids but having protected sex is a big part of stoping the spread of aids. It is truly unbelievable the level of retardness the black church structure displays.

dc_speaks said...

oh my...Mark. I see that you have a fire in your heart for discounting various religions. I will re read and come back to share my thoughts. especially since I happen to be one of them(Christians).

If nothing else, I agree about many of the issues brought up that don't get addressed strong enough in the black/white churches. Great post.

I'll be back though

mark said...

" the Dead and ancient Egyptian writings where the original Joseph was Osirus, the original Mary was Isis, and the original Jesus was Horus, all Black Egyptians. "

mark bey: Goodmorning bronze maybe the bible was derived in some part from the egyptian book of the dead but I consider it all other things claiming to be religion fairy tales.

Thank you for stopping by Bronze.

Ticia said...

Great Post.. I enjoyed the stats and the breakdown you give of them.

One of the most important things you talk about is all the sex blk folks are having. Its outrageous to see it protrayed the way it is and that no one is talking abt it...hence the baby momma drama and all that could be eliminated if folks could use some tact and strength and wait a little while.

mark said...

Thank you for your comments DC. My problems are not with christians or any other religious group. My problem is when they try to use a philosophy they cannot prove in intellectual debate to try to infulence or judge the life and actions of others.

They know black people are being devestated by aids, they know most people have sex before marraige, they have been told for the last 15 years that aids is spread by having unproteted sex with someone but they (the black church) still continues to insist that aids is a curse by god inspite of the fact that the bible never says this or implies.

All I want the church to do is give practical advise to the black folks which includes advise people who arent married and having sex to protect themselves using condoms.

mark said...

" if folks could use some tact and strength and wait a little while."

mark bey: This is true Ticia but the baby moma drama would still be cut down inspite of the fact that people are having sex before marraige if folks would only use commons sense and use condoms.

I have seen absolutely zero evidence that anyone (black folks included) are going to wait until marraige to have sex.

What is so hard about the church advising folks who they already know are having sex to use protection for the sake of their kids, families and the good of the entire black community.

A Beautiful Life said...

Mark said, "To be honest that is not all it will take to stop the spread of aids but having protected sex is a big part of stopping the spread of aids. It is truly unbelievable the level of retardness the black church structure displays."

First I don't care if you feel I"m a retard for writing these comments.

1) I apologize that you had bad experiences with religion. Christianity is much bigger than a denomination or "the black church." How can a man of God stand before his congregation and tell them to participate in sexual acts outside of marriage. Be honest, you know that the nonbeliever and anti-religion crew would be the first ones calling him a hypocrite and really find reasons to joke Christians. In the same way of calling Christians who don't follow the word of God a mess, they would be calling him a mess. If I was dating you and sleeping with you and then trying to get you to come to my church and follow Christ, you would see me as joke.
The answer is not condom use. It's Marriage, Monogamy, control of the flesh, and fatherhood. Marriage, monogamy, and control of the flesh are self-explanatory. I include fatherhood, because if fathers stepped up to the plate, young men would get their self-esteem from places other than how many women they slept with. These young girls just need a father to tell them they are beautiful and worth the wait, and they'll stop letting just anyone sleep with them. But no, we live in a society where people want to do what they want to do, lack discipline, and it's accepted. Just because most people do it, doesn't make it right.

2) So say a preacher tells his congregation to use condoms. What good would it do since women make up the majority of the "black church?" The men would not get the word. Statistics show that women in premarital sex (not really premarital since most don't marry people they slept with), don't use condoms because their boyfriends don't want to and they don't feel strong enough to ask. Do you see the correlation between premarital sex and low self-esteem for many (not all) women.

3) You can't deny that there was a shift in society once prayer and the 10 commandments were taken out of schools and talking about God and Jesus became a "crime." If you are a Christian walking in fellowship with God you are a considered a crazy man or woman. Some of you reading this think this about me. The nonbeliever and anti religion crew are more acceptable of a Christian who parties, drinks, sleeps around, steals, murders, etc., than one who follows the word.

4) There are many people who call themselves Christians because they believe in Christ, but they are not submitted to the word of God (including slave masters). It is true that many people are hurt and they actions of shaky Christians. But if you get into true fellowship with God, you'll get past that and be able to fellowship with believers, because you'll be able to forgive and find a church home that is Bible based and where people are striving to live by fruit. Don't block yourself from a blessing, because of what someone did to you.

5) The Bible is the most questioned book of all time. Few people question the chemicals in the alcohol they drink or the weed they smoke. They just want to get high. They know that even though what they are smoking or drinking isn't 100% from the earth, it can be used to meet their needs. They don't even question it.
Let's just say that the Bible is 75 to 95% the word of God. Well, that's all I need to meet my need to honor Him! No need to even question it! For some people it's ok to follow Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, without questioning a thing, but the same people will question everything about Christianity.
From your comments I don't know what bible you are reading, maybe you all aren't really reading it. Get a concordance or use a site like bible.com so that you can search for all of the scriptures on a topic you don't understand. If you still don't understand get counsel by a pastor.

6) Read the Case for Christ, By Lee Stroble and former atheist turned Christian

7) There are many things that I can't explain to you, because when you know you just know, and it's not going to make sense to someone who isn't open. In the same way you know when you've been discriminated against because you just know. You may not be able to explain it to a white person, but you just know.

8) There are many shaky and janky Christians and leaders out there, but don't judge Christians who live a life of excellence based off of the janky Christians you've seen. I feel for people who haven't been introduced to many fruitful people. I feel for people who haven't been introduced to many pastors who are stepping up to the plate using the Word of God to relate to current issues, and they are getting results without talking about condom use as a way to stop AIDS.

Some of you will think what I said doesn't make sense. Others will debate and reply with a negative comment about what I posted. But maybe, maybe a few of you will see where I'm coming from.

Be blessed and Be loved!

A Beautiful Life said...

To support my that men wouldn't receive the word on condom use, so fixing the problem is bigger than that, and that "black churches" are 95% women.

Adam! Where Are You?: Why Most Black Men Don't Go to Church
Jawanza Kunjufu

A Beautiful Life said...

"In fact many black preachers come from backgrounds where they were once playboys and way too many of them have been caught in adulterous affairs or have had children out of wedlock but still they dont advise from the pulpit to use condoms if folks arent married."

When you accept Jesus Christ and are submitted to the word of the Lord, you know that God can transform you and you don't even look like what you used to do.

So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 2 Corinthians 5:1

The things that you used to do don't make sense anymore. I am not the same person I was before I got saved. I am not a virgin, but now premarital sex does NOT make sense to me. I couldn't agree with that behavior. I've been celibate for over two years, and no, I don't participate in self-pleasure. I’ll stay this way until my wedding night. Self control is difficult, but it isn't that hard when God is in it. I've been blessed in so many ways from my abstinence. Nothing is impossible when God is in it. God is real! Call me crazy if you want too =).

JustMeWriting said...

dag...I missed this, but I'm glad ms. beautiful was here...LOL. Mark, you know I know your thoughts on this, but my thing is religion, of WHATEVER YOU DECIDE, shoule be based on YOU and GOD not the wrongs of the people...what they do or don't do...JUST you and your Lord, because people are flawed, but if your focus is on God, He'll reveal those things to you. I'm going to leave this alone for now, becaue I've got a toothache, but you might not want to visit my page today....LOL. (because it's all about Christ)

Hathor said...

a beautiful life,
Just don't do it. What next. "Control the flesh." Do you think that all womens libidos are the same. Hunger and sexual desire are one of the strongest urges mankind has, it built in for survival. Prayer will do it? You should talk to someone who has taken a vow of celibacy and what it requires. To do so one has to have coping strategies even if they are religious strategies. If sex is not talked about in church seriously, just how is one suppose to cope. Just don't do it, doesn't get it. I think if you have a child you already know this.

You can't talk at having self respect, the person has to have some experience of being capable, does the church provide that. Otherwise the church is no better than slavery giving blacks only hope in the hereafter; their life here should only be a means to death.

mark said...

"How can a man of God stand before his congregation and tell them to participate in sexual acts outside of marriage. Be honest, you know that the nonbeliever and anti-religion crew would be the first ones calling him a hypocrite "

mark bey: First of all thank you for your comment. I didnt say men of god should tell anyone to participate in non marrital sex. But I did say that since every knows that the majority of people have sex before marraige and most black kids are born out of wedlock why not advise your congregation (mnany of whom are single black women raising kids on their OWN)to use protection for the act they are doing already. Since we all know that children raised in single parent are much more likely to end up in jail or murdured why not advise your congregation members who are having sex to use a condom. They wouldnt they thought premarital sex was alright. All they would be doing is helping to protect the lives of the those single women in the church and the lives of their children too.

Lastly by that standard then I would imagine that over half of the black preachers are hypocrits do you really believe that the majority of black preachers waited until they were married to have sex.

Also when you have men of god such as Jamal Bryant making babies out of wedlock while in divinity school and Jesse Jackson making love children while marraid then the those types of preachers can already be classified hypocrits. But their are many other reasons why I consider a lot of these black preachers clowns and hypocrits.

Although I like Jamal Bryant and he aint no clown.

mark said...

@ a beautiful life

“First I don't care if you feel I"m a retard for writing these comments. “

I didn’t say you or other Christians were retarded. But the church way too many churches are still not stepping up to the plate on the aids issue. Before we can even began to have conversation about whether or not the church stepping up to the plate every last single one of them must began free aids testing, counseling and treat programs immediately. Until that happens I’m sorry but the black church will retain no credibility on fighting aids in the black community with me. Insisting that aids is a curse by god against gay people is retarded in my opinion. there are many other reasons why I thing the black church is backwards but I wont go into them right now. Anyway too many in the black church are promoting fairy tales about aids. What do you have to say about that.





“they would be calling him a mess. If I was dating you and sleeping with you and then trying to get you to come to my church and follow Christ, you would see me as joke. “

Mark bey: Yes I do see the notion that the majority of people would ever wait until marriage to have sex.. The fact that black children make up 13% of the total population of children but are over 60% percent of all children infected tells you all you need to know about people waiting until marriage to have sex. percentage of black preachers do you think waited until they were married to have sex? If profound men like Jessie Jackson and Jamal Bryant don’t follow the rules about waiting to be married how can you expect the first batch of kids from the “Crack Baby Generation” to show more restraint than men like Jamal Bryant and Jessie Jackson “ who were called by god” to lead responsibly and set a sterling example of how men should conduct themselves.

“The answer is not condom use. It's Marriage, Monogamy, control of the flesh, and fatherhood. Marriage, monogamy, and control of the flesh are self-explanatory. I include fatherhood, because if fathers stepped up to the plate, young men would get their self-esteem from places other than how many women they slept with. “

Mark bey: The marriage question involves lot of lifestyle changes. Brothas especially are going to have to change their behavior. Criminal and non productive behavior must be changed into behavior that can support a wife and kids before we can even began to talk about marriage. We haven’t even touched on monogamy. I have seen very few examples of people waiting until they were married to have sex or people not cheating on their spouses. Especially when their younger. Then their parenting classes that must be encouraged and taught throughout the community, people need to be taught our rich history, the black community needs to feel empowered to take education deadly seriously. Those are just a few of the things that well increase marriage.

Its my opinion 70% of men and 40% percent of married people are going to cheat on
Also I agree with you when you say that black men need to associate manhood with something other than how many woman their getting up in. If you read this bog regular you will clearly see that I am an apologist for no one or organization in the black community.

It is my opinion that 60% percent of women will knowingly have and affair with a married man at some point in their lives. It is my opinion that 70% of single woman would knowingly involve themselves with a man who already had a girlfriend. It is my opinion that 85% of men would have an affair with a maraid or attached women. And will cheat at some point in their lives. I have seen any examples of monogamy or people waiting until they were married to have sex on a widespread level in the communities I have lived or the black America that I know. If people got married in the past that may have been at the point of a gun after getting someone’s daughter pregnant they don’t nowadays. Do you really believe that people were so puritanical as to not be having sex before marriage in pastimes. Personally I wished they would.





“So say a preacher tells his congregation to use condoms. What good would it do since women make up the majority of the "black church?" The men would not get the word. Statistics show that women in premarital sex (not really premarital since most don't marry people they slept with), don't use condoms because their boyfriends don't want to and they don't feel strong enough to ask.”

It would do a great deal if a preacher tells his congregation that and instructs the mothers to instruct their daughters and sons to never ever have sex without a condom.
If you can teach your child that having sex before marriage is not a good thing than you can teach them that having sex before marriage and not using condom is retarded.

Also I don’t if women have figured this out yet but if you restrict sex to only those who are willing to use condoms then they’ll use condoms. If a woman ask the guy to put on a condom and he wont or doesn’t then in my opinion that woman has no business giving he treasure (because that’s what it is) to that man. Period. If a woman tells a guy no condom no sex the brotha will rock a condom. That’s a fact.




“You can't deny that there was a shift in society once prayer and the 10 commandments were taken out of schools and talking about God and Jesus became a "crime."“

Mark bey: Are you saying that most people weren’t having sex before marriage in past times. My general belief is this if you put large amounts of people together they are going to have sex. Whether its Junior high school -college, work or somewhere else. That has been the reality I have seen with my eyes. Every I have been with a large amount of people their were enough people having sex to be called a common thing. I’m not advocating or saying this behavior is right I’m just stating what I have seen with my eyes. I have never seen people living up to the standards of not having sex until marriage or monogamy for that matter. Also exactly which of the over 23 different bibles will you be getting that prayer from. I don’t event thing the different sects of Christians would agree on which prayer to use for prayer.

Then are you going to allow Muslims, Jewish folks and every other religion to have school prayers?

Lastly how can you expect the current generation to wait until marraige for sex if the previous generation didnt and isnt currently?

A Beautiful Life said...

Mark,

We agree that the church has issues. We disagree on the advocacy of condoms in churches. We could debate for days, knowing that I (possibly you too) will not change my beliefs, so after this I'm done posting on this topic.

Please forgive me if I sound harsh, but how can a person who hates religion and feels the bible is full of contradictions stand at this church AIDS event and tell these religious people who reverence the bible, even if they don't all live by it that they should get tested or promote condom use in their churches. Why would they listen to you?

My responses to your questions:
"Anyway too many in the black church are promoting fairy tales about aids. What do you have to say about that."

I haven't heard of any fairy tales.

"If profound men like Jessie Jackson and Jamal Bryant don’t follow the rules about waiting to be married how can you expect the first batch of kids from the “Crack Baby Generation” to show more restraint than men like Jamal Bryant and Jessie Jackson “ who were called by god” to lead responsibly and set a sterling example of how men should conduct themselves."
I watch Jamal Bryant on Friday mornings, and his words have really ministered to me. I don't see his past, I see how God is using him now to change lives. I write to you as a person who knows that change in one's lifestyle is possible, because I've experienced a lot. I write to you as a person who knows that people don't always make the best decisions and can fairly correct the errors of others once they've taken care of their own errors. I'm an open book, and many people have learned from the things I wish I would have done differently and decided not to do the things I did. To you, I am still a hypocrite Christian. I write as someone who knows that just because someone is a reverend or Christian doesn't mean he or she is in fellowship with God. I also write as someone who knows there's power in the reading and living by the word of God. It's not something I expect most people sharing your views to understand.

"Do you really believe that people were so puritanical as to not be having sex before marriage in pastimes."

No

"Also I don’t if women have figured this out yet but if you restrict sex to only those who are willing to use condoms then they’ll use condoms."

I guess you would also say that if ALL women said no sex until marriage, that brothers would be getting married everywhere.

"Also exactly which of the over 23 different bibles will you be getting that prayer from. I don’t event thing the different sects of Christians would agree on which prayer to use for prayer."

Prayers don't have to come out of a Bible, but the Lord's prayer (Our Father...) is sufficient.

"Then are you going to allow Muslims, Jewish folks and every other religion to have school prayers?"

They can pray if they want to. Some may have prayed along with Christians before prayer was taken out of schools. There can be moments of silence reserved for prayer where people just pray regardless of religion or denomination.

"Lastly how can you expect the current generation to wait until marraige for sex if the previous generation didnt and isnt currently?"

The same way I expect first generation college students to get through college even though the previous generation didn't. The same way I expect a man to be faithful even though is father and grandfather were rolling stones. The same way I expect a young woman to be kind, even though her mother and grandmother were mean and nasty. The same way I expect people to be wealthy even though their parents are in poverty. Seek God, get connected with like minded people, set boundaries, be accountable to someone, be ready to fight, and stop feeding the things that keep you down.

Hathor-
You are right that not all men and women have the same libidos, but I know people with extremely strong libidos who have decided to be celibate until marriage. No one said it's always easy.

I suppose I'm blessed to belong to and have visited many churches that do talk about sex, and the beauty and joy of sex and intimacy in marriage. How it is a God given desire, and not something to be shared freely. Most of my friends churches also talk openly about sex and living without sex while single. It's not just a don't do it, but reasons not to do it and positive things associated with not doing it. It's not a hush, hush thing. I guess it depends where you go. Just like not all black people are the same, not all predominately black churches are the same.

If anyone has very personal questions, questions about my life changes, or wants advice hit me up at abeautifullife00@gmail.com. I love to share what I know.

Love, be loved, and love some more!

mark said...

“The Bible is the most questioned book of all time. Few people question the chemicals in the alcohol they drink or the weed they smoke. They just want to get high.”

“ Let's just say that the Bible is 75 to 95% the word of God. Well, that's all I need to meet my need to honor Him! No need to even question it!”


Mark bey: If the bible is the most questionable book of all time and god inspire/created/wrote the bible well whos fault is that. If god is all powerful and all knowing then why would god allow his supposed word to be contained in a text that is the most questioned book of all time? Also if as you suggested the bible is 75%-95% percent the word of god whose qualified to interpret which part of the bible is the word of god and which part is a fairy tale. Maybe all you need is a bible that is supposedly 75% percent true but that is how you feel and others don’t fell that way. Muslims consider the Quran to be 100% percent true and I don’t think a bible that is 75% accurate will get for them or for me for that matter.

“For some people it's ok to follow Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, without questioning a thing, but the same people will question everything about Christianity.”

Mark bey: I don’t follow any organized religion I think all them (including Christianity are fairy tales). Also none of the major religions respect each other and all of them question one another with that sick and retarded clause in them stating that only believers in that particular religion will get to heaven... Also Christians challenge other religions all of the time so I don’t know where you get the impression that other religions gets a free past compared to Christianity.


From your comments I don't know what bible you are reading, maybe you all aren't really reading it.

Mark bey: I never said I read the bible also has it ever occurred to you and other Christians that maybe a god that would allow religions other than Christianity to exist and be called the word of god by a billion people then maybe god would speak to some through text other ones that feature Jesus Christ as the son of god.


“Read the Case for Christ, By Lee Stroble and former atheist turned Christian”


Mark bey: Ill read by former atheist turned Christians when you read books by former Christians turned atheist. Also I am not an atheist I just don’t like religion because it causes so much confusion.

“There are many things that I can't explain to you, because when you know you just know, and it's not going to make sense to someone who isn't open. In the same way you know when you've been discriminated against because you just know. You may not be able to explain it to a white person, but you just know.”


Mark bey: Muslims and Jewish folks cant make this “When you just know you just know” statement about Islam and Judaism you’ve said nothing with that above statement.


“There are many shaky and janky Christians and leaders out there, but don't judge Christians who live a life of excellence based off of the janky Christians you've seen.”

Mark bey: The problem with your statement is this I don’t see the majority of Christians living a life of excellence as defined by the bible.


“I feel for people who haven't been introduced to many pastors who are stepping up to the plate using the Word of God to relate to current issues, and they are getting results without talking about condom use as a way to stop AIDS.”

Mark bey: The black church and preachers are dealing with aids effectively? Why that’s news to me. To be dealing so effectively with aids and premarital sex I sure see a lot of people around my neighborhood and I have 20 churches within a 15 minutes walk of my house in N.E Washington D.C. Also the fact that over 60% percent of black youth are born out of wedlock, that 60% percent of the children in America with aids are black does not sound like the churches are doing a very good job of fighting premarital sex or out of wedlock birthrates in black America. I don’t know what black community you live in but in mine it is obvious that the churches are getting results in ending premarital sex.

“Some of you will think what I said doesn't make sense. Others will debate and reply with a negative comment about what I posted.”

Mark bey: No what your saying doesn’t make sense to me especially when folks like you have had premarital sex, see all the harm done to the black community because of the results of premarital sex but then tries to pretend that “Crack Baby” generation is going to wait until marriage to have sex.

“To support my that men wouldn't receive the word on condom use, so fixing the problem is bigger than that, and that "black churches" are 95% women.”

Mark bey: Nonsense there are plenty of women who tell instruct their sons to use condoms, there are plenty of woman who take their daughters to the clinic for birth control when their daughters hit 13 years of age.


“When you accept Jesus Christ and are submitted to the word of the Lord, you know that God can transform you and you don't even look like what you used to do.”


“ So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see,
everything has become new! 2 Corinthians 5:1”

Mark bey: Muslims and Jewish people can make this same statement about their brand of god.


“The things that you used to do don't make sense anymore. I am not the same person I was before I got saved. I am not a virgin, but now premarital sex does NOT make sense to me. I couldn't agree with that behavior. I've been celibate for over two years, and no, I don't participate in self-pleasure. “

Mark bey: But the fact is it still took time for you to get to this place in life before you could realize this and when you were sinning the chances of getting aids were a lot less than in 2007. It is a lot more dangerous to engage in unprotected sex now than even 5 years ago. Also I am 34 when I was 14 -16 their was no internet to make connections with people with, also the music wasn’t anything near as sexually explicit as it is now.
Also it is kind of funny how you get to have your fun and then find religion and you know finally understand how wrong having sex before marriage was but after you’ve had your fun of course. This is one of the main reasons I am losing my respect for many Christianits because of this philosophy of do as I say not as I do type of thinking which is madness.

“ I’ll stay this way until my wedding night. Self control is difficult, but it isn't that hard when God is in it. I've been blessed in so many ways from my abstinence. Nothing is impossible when God is in it. God is real! Call me crazy if you want too =).”

Mark bye: Well good for you, because the majority of people are going to continue to have their fun. No one is saying your crazy I just don’t know why the church and Christians insist and pretend that folks are going to wait until marriage to have sex when profound men who have been anointed by god make children in divinity school (Jamal Bryant). This is the height of hypocrisy in my opinion to insist that a 14 year old young man who is having the strongest sexual urges a man well ever have is supposed wait until marriage when not only do the majority of black Americans don’t wait but preachers called to lead by god don’t wait. That is pure hypocrisy in my opinion.

I would never expect people to act more moral than I am willing to act I would consider that pure hypocrisy.

A Beautiful Life said...

I said I was done, but here I go =)...

I have a master's in sociology with a concentration in health behaviors and interventions. The other is the social psychology of inequaltiy. I currently work in a health research center, and I know that fixing the problem is much bigger than health interventions or promoting condom use in churches.

I stand firm on my belief that pastors need to equip their congregations AND communities with tools on discipline, the beauty of sex in a marriage context (sex is a ministry), monogamy, and fatherhood, and not accept that people are going to do what they want to do and promote condoms.

"Also it is kind of funny how you get to have your fun and then find religion and you know finally understand how wrong having sex before marriage was but after you’ve had your fun of course."

Before I was saved, I used to think that about people. However, when I experienced that change I began to understand. Who said I lived a life of fun? Maybe it sounded fun to you. I never felt a peace or like my life was fun before I came to know Christ. I feel like my life is fun now. I started to love my life once Christ became a part of it. My life is fabulous and way hotter than it was before. You've read my poem and blog.

Christians and so called Christians need to adhere to the importance of living a life of excellence. Most people with Mark's views were not turned off to church or religion because of something God did, but because of how someone who claimed to love the Lord treated them.

Also, many people want to come to Christ, but fear that people with Mark's views will always remind them of who they used to be and never take them seriously, which isn't healthy either. There's no need to fear.

In love and peace.
I wrote this quickly so don't mind the typos.

Dave said...


Christians and so called Christians need to adhere to the importance of living a life of excellence.


This philosophy is far older than Christianity, and is merely one moral in a long list of ethics that the Christian church has absorbed, absconded and assimilated from other pre-existing systems of thought.

The problem with Christianity, is that it fails to acknowledge the validity and equality of all those other schools of thought and religions that came before it, and basically provided it with all that it (Christianity) is today. 101%. Christianity is the ultimate theological plaguerism.

Christianity is a backwards. It works by feeding on people's anxiety, playing on their fears. Instead of examining the inherent goodness in our existence, it starts out in a position of negativity, and then delivers a consequence based ultimatum to believers. This is not healthy or productive. It's manipulative and threatening.

To see the truth in this does not require one to have been slighted by a "so called" Christian, or to be dumped on by "God." All it takes is an open mind, and a willingness to explore other "religions" beyond the limiting context of Western thought.

All religions are simultaneously right AND wrong. Until Christianity, and Christians are willing to admit this basic philosophical truth, the free thinkers of this era will continue to debase and debunk its so called "truth, way, and light."

mark said...

I don’t have a masters in anything. But I fully remember the church spreading fairy tales about aids. Do you remember that aids being a curse on gay people thing? Which fueled and increased hatred for homosexuals which the church is not supposed to teach. I also agree that is much bigger than promoting condom use in church.


If the preachers were to say something like this

“ We absolutely do not agree with premarital sex, we believe you should remain sex free until marriage. However the currently reality of aids, the out of wedlock birthrate rate in black America, fatherless children and all of the negative things that comes along with it dictates that for the safety ofyour children teach them abstinence first then explain to them that if they insist on having sex that they be responsible and use a condom to prevent unplanned pregnancies and the spread of HIV and other STD’s"




You stand firm on your belief after you violated the Christian code of not having sex before marriage. I’m not judging for having sex before marriage because most people have sex before marriage.

Including Jamal Bryant WHILE he was in divinity school surrounded by the word 24x7. It didn’t stop Jesse from making a love child out of wedlock. What I find so annoying and hypocritical about your explanation is this. When you were sinning it was a lot safer to have unprotected sex.

In 07 it is dangerous to have unprotected sex unless your married. You are not the only one who has found god after a life of fornication, being saved was a revelation to Ethel Waters who had been a notorious lesbian before finding god. The reality is this people found god years before you decided to live a life of sin.

Even after revelations by thousands of people in the 50 and 60s to stop fornicating and come to people like you would grow up and still fornicate even after people from previous generation had been saved. Just because you found you religion when you did does not mean others who are currently having risky sex wont come to find god and go celibate at the same age you did. The difference is this people having unprotected sex out of wedlock in 2007 are a lot more at risk than the people of your generation were when they were doing. As far as

I’m concerned since you, Jamal Bryant I and 92% of the American population did not wait until marriage to have sex (in spite of the fact of being exposed to Christianity) I would be a fool and a hypocrite to insist that a 14 year old boy (who’s urges for sex are stronger then than at any other time in life) wait until marriage and not teach him to use condoms if he falls short like most of us do.

You being saved doesn’t change the fact that you already decided to commit the so called sin, its not like you can say you didn’t know having sex before marriage was a sin. Also I don’t care what you say sex is fun married, unmarried condom or no condom to say it isn’t is foolishness in my opinion. Also if your life Is fun then good because you chose that life but that doesn’t mean that people who aren’t Christians, or who aren’t saved aren’t having a fabulous life as well. Some people don’t need to believe in Jesus to have a fabulous life and love all other human beings.


I am one of those people. Some of us don’t need to believe that others with different beliefs are going to hell because they don’t believe what we believe.

Using this logic. You needed to , so did Jamal Bryant, Jesse Jackson, Me and 92% of the population that doesn’t wait until marriage to have sex. . Well at the very least


I love debating you and I respect and value you as a human being. However I don’t take your views seriously because they smack of hypocrisy and that old adage of do as I say not as I do. Its not my fault you made the choices that you did so in a debate about condom use and the black church I have a right to bring up the behavior of the American black population as well as the results from that behavior. I’m just trying to point out the fact that most people don’t wait until they are married to have sex, most people didn’t wait when I was growing up in the 80’s I have never had one old timer from the 40,50 and 60’s ever tell me that people for the most part waited until marriage to have sex. Also the fact is that nowadays it would be much more dangerous for you, I and black people from past times to engage in unprotected sex. The penalty for unprotected sex when you were growing up was a baby at worst herpes which isn’t final in 2007 it can be death by aids and the fact is and has been for a long time that most people in America don’t wait until marriage to have sex. So it only makes sense to me that people who do choose to have sex before marriage protect themselves and their partners. Because I have seen no evidence that people in this country are going to wait until marriage.

Also you implied that I had a close mind in one of the comments I find rather Ironic that someone who follows a religion that says I am going to hell for not believe in that religion could call me close minded when my spiritual beliefs don’t insist that anyone is going to hell for not believing what I believe. Trust I’m not the one who’s close minded.

mark said...

"The problem with Christianity, is that it fails to acknowledge the validity and equality of all those other schools of thought and religions that came before it, and basically provided it with all that it (Christianity) is today. 101%. Christianity is the ultimate theological plaguerism.

Christianity is a backwards. It works by feeding on people's anxiety, playing on their fears. Instead of examining the inherent goodness in our existence,"

mark bey: This is part of the point I have been attempting to get at. Whats sad is this, all religions want others to respect them but many of them have the retarded clause about people not following them going to hell to me that is disrespect to say someone is going to burn in hell for eternity. Total disrespect especially when they cant prove their relgions validity over another.

Bygbaby said...

"Besides, the whole Christian religion came from the Book of the Dead and ancient Egyptian writings where the original Joseph was Osirus, the original Mary was Isis, and the original Jesus was Horus, all Black Egyptians." Broizetrinity, uyou aint never lyin'

Bygbaby

Dave said...

Mark,
I agree, completely. When one looks at the basic principles of Christianity.. its tenants, its teachings, it is an assault on logic. To be Christian, is to hate yourself, for whatever reason. You have got to believe that you are a low down dirty P.O.S. sinner that doesn't deserve love. But hey, the magic genie in the sky will give it to you.

Btw, if you don't obey the genie in the sky's every command, you will burn in a pit of torment for the rest of... FOREVER. Come on. I have nightmares that make more sense than this, that are more real.

I'm sorry but for someone to predicate and qualify their knowledge by announcing they have achieved a certain level of education is one thing, but to follow that up with admitting to being Christian, that negates any previous claims to being educated.

I wish I knew how to encourage everyone to want to seek the truth for themselves, instead of sitting back and letting someone else spoon feed them... but alas, this is a nearly impossible task.

mark said...

@ Dave

mark bey: They are zealots like hathor they would rahter condem people to death by not giving thoughtful advice on safesex than having the preachers (who fornicate too) announce that they dont agree with people having sex but if your going to do it then protect yourself and your family.

mark said...

"
mark bey: They are zealots like hathor they would rahter condem people to death by not giving thoughtful advice on safesex than having the preachers (who fornicate too) announce that they dont agree with people having sex but if your going to do it then protect yourself and your family. "

mark bey: I meant to say.


mark bey: They are zealots like hathor said they would rahter condem people to death by not giving thoughtful advice on safesex than having the preachers (who fornicate too) announce that they dont agree with people having sex but if your going to do it then protect yourself and your family.

Bullfrog said...

I read a few of the responses, but not all, there were too many so pardon me if I repeat things that others have said.

The main line of thinking that always baffles me is: "People professing [religion of your choice] do bad things, so [religion of your choice] is bad, or teaches that these bad things are good"

For example, many neo-nazis claim to be Christian and use the Bible to justify hatred for Jews and frown upon interracial relationships.

I have studied the Bible for years and have never seen any concrete evidence that the Bible teaches antisemitism or not to race mix, in fact, God promises that under no circumstances will His "Chosen People" cease to be a nation. So for anyone, like the Nazi Party, to try to annihilate the Jews from the face of the earth is not only not biblical, it is futile. Therefore, Hitler and his cohorts, as well as neo-nazis trying to revive that movement are decidedly unChristian in their doctrine and behavior.

The point is, you measure the validity of a book based on it's historicity and the effect it has on people who FOLLOW IT, not on those who use religion to justify heinous crimes against humanity or any other evil.

All these people prove is that, yes indeed, people are inherently wicked and given to destroying themselves. Not shocking news to me.

The Bible also teaches the ultimate form of birth control and disease control: abstinence. Not a popular word as many are simply unwilling to try.

The philosophy of secular humanism teaches that we should not deny our basic urges, modern science supports this by saying we MUST have intercourse to be healthy, so most (who want to be sexually promiscuous anyway) take this and run. This behavior is why we have unwanted births, abortion (another holocaust), and rampant spreading of STDs. In spite of billions spent in education and advertising about condom use, things are not getting better, so could it be that a condom is not really the answer to this problem?

As a parent of 2 children the rationale of, "Well, they are going to do it anyway, so they may as well be safe." frustrated me to no end because if I parent this way, eventually I unleash a person onto the world who has no boundaries and no sense of responsibility because I have told them they can do whatever they want, just be safe about it.

mark said...

@ bullfrog

"The main line of thinking that always baffles me is: "People professing [religion of your choice] do bad things, so [religion of your choice] is bad, or teaches that these bad things are good"

For example, many neo-nazis claim to be Christian and use the Bible to justify hatred for Jews and frown upon interracial relationships

Therefore, Hitler and his cohorts, as well as neo-nazis trying to revive that movement are decidedly unChristian in their doctrine and behavior. "


Mark bey: That statement could be used any time anyone citizen, church official or a religious institution itself decides to harm other humans using the name of god. God created the word and human beings the way he did knowing what fools like hitler and his cohorts would do but he did nothing to stop it and to at least protect children and those who couldnt protect themselves. God knew before adam and eve that in the 1930s some clowns in germany would go buck wild and start murdering innocent children but he did nothing to stop the murder of a million children that died in the concentration camps and as a result of world war 2. Also nothing you said explains one iota why god allows clowns to perpetrate genocide against other human beings when he could stop it.

"The point is, you measure the validity of a book based on it's historicity and the effect it has on people who FOLLOW IT, not on those who use religion to justify heinous crimes against humanity or any other evil."



Mark bey: That still does not explain why god would allow people to kill millions of other people using his name to commit unspeakable crimes. It also does not explain why god would allow hundreds of religions to exist if only Christianity would get you to heaven.



“All these people prove is that, yes indeed, people are inherently wicked and given to destroying themselves. Not shocking news to me.”


Mark bey: But who designed man with the flaws of inherent wickedness that causes man to destroy himself. Man didn’t create himself, god created man and since god is perfect and man is wicked and imperfect then god must want things to be this way at least for now.

Also god knew everything that was going to happen long before you and I were born so if he created us with flaws and knew all of the evil things we would do because of those flaws he put inside of us then this must be what god wants. If people are given to destroying themselves and god created us flawed, wicked and imperfect well it must be part of gods plans certain of us to destroy ourselves.

Bullfrog said...

It's interesting that people cling to their "free will" and independence, until they do something stupid, or something horrible is perpetrated; then it's "why does God allow that?", or even better, "It's my parents fault for not raising me better."

How about some personal responsibility instead of blaming God for everything.

mark said...

Good afternoon bullfrog and happy fathers day.

" why does God allow that?", or even better, "It's my parents fault for not raising me better."

mark bey: The difference between god and parents is this, god created the game along with the rules of the game called LIFE that I, you and every other person ever born has to live buy.

Also unlike the parents of the kids in the concentration camps god not only KNEW that genocide would happen thousands of years ago, hes known for a long time and did NOTHING to stop it when he could have stopped it.

Also god created all things in the universe which means he created EVIL AND MURDER but he did nothing to stop the murder of a million kids.

Please address my previous comment also as your response didnt.

Lastly you are right that people(including myself) find god very fast when their is trouble in their life.

Bullfrog said...

If your question is, "Why does God allow terrible things?", the answer is not a simple one, and I cannot pretend to know the mind of God well enough to answer on His behalf.

I can tell you that I have seen my share of trouble, have experienced horrors in my life that not many have and have some sense of what good can come of terrible circumstances.

Let us use the holocaust as an example. You question whether anything good can come of that, and you seem to be of the opinion that God should have stopped it altogether. What I have learned in my life is that I never cling to God more closely, never pray more, or seek Him more than when I have trouble. When things are great, I tend to ignore my relationship with Him. More character has been built in me due to the troublesome times, far more than when I am in abundance.

One can imagine, if they try, what good can come of evil. There are of course things that happen that are terrible but seemingly arbitrary that we may never have answers to. I don't believe God is obligated to furnish those answers necessarily. All that is really necessary is that I trust Him, because I have spent time with Him and know Him.

You may think me a fool and reckon that I am blind for trusting someone that I cannot see with my own eyes and touch with my hands, but the invisible God gives me very real peace and tranquility in chaotic and confusing times.

How else can God have mercy, forgive transgression, and be a beacon of light and peace unless he first allows sin, darkness, confusion, and chaos to be manifested in His creation?

Angie said...

"You may think me a fool and reckon that I am blind for trusting someone that I cannot see with my own eyes and touch with my hands, but the invisible God gives me very real peace and tranquility in chaotic and confusing times." Bullfrog

This comment, along with all of Bullfrog's comments, really touched me. I absolutely identify. It wasn't my degrees, my relationship with my mother and father, or anything here on earth that stopped me from killing myself during very difficult times in my life. It was the peace of God that transcends all human understanding that saved me from the pain of this world.

Call me stupid... I call myself alive and sain...

Mark, you don't have to get it and that's fine. But don't try to shove your rhetoric down believers throats. You don't think Christians shouldn't Bible beat you with their "opinions about God." Then don't insist that people should agree with you.

To Dave: I take offense your comments that people who accept Christianity are basically stupid. (To summarize) I'm glad that I don't think that my multiple degrees qualify me for being smart anyway. And anyway, I'm not a fan of book sense anyway. I crave wisdom. And wisdom can't be found between the pages of a book.

My decision to follow God has nothing to do with my intelect. Because, really my intelect betrays me when it comes to spiritual issues. But I believe with my heart. That doesn't require any intelect.

Mark, I will not clog your blog with my personal feelings on this matter. The truth is that I don't need validation for what I choose to believe. Brotha, you don't know what I have gone through and how my faith has been challenged. So, there's really nothing that can be said on a blog to shake my faith.

You and I have already exchanged opinions on this similar subject over at Field's blog. And at the end of the day, I respect your opinions. I just thought I would share this little tid bit before I walked away from this discussion completely.

Brotha, you have a good week. Catch you around the way, on another subject.

Love,

Angie

mark said...

If your question is, "Why does God allow terrible things?", the answer is not a simple one, and I cannot pretend to know the mind of God well enough to answer on His behalf.

Mark bey: That’s funny Bull Frog Christians routinely engage in these types of activities all the time. One time I asked you something to the effect of” IF Christianity was the only way to get to heaven then why does god allow other differing religions which wont get you to heaven to exist” you replied the reason is because god wants man to find him through all of those others religions. That sounds like trying to know god’s mind to me, another time one time the topic got on evolution somehow and you said that you didn’t believe in Macro evolution monkey’s to man but you did believe in micro evolution which would account for the thousands of closesly related species such of ants, bees, snails ect. That sounds like pretending to or attempting to know the mind of god to me. Besides when folks engage in discussions about religion what is that but attempting to know the mind of god. When crhistians say things such as only believers in Jesus Christ will get to heaven and everyone else will burn in hell forever what is that but pretending to know the mind of god. You are just trying to get out of asking a legitimate question.


Let us use the holocaust as an example. You question whether anything good can come of that, and you seem to be of the opinion that God should have stopped it altogether. What I have learned in my life is that I never cling to God more closely, never pray more, or seek Him more than when I have trouble. When things are great, I tend to ignore my relationship with Him. More character has been built in me due to the troublesome times, far more than when I am in abundance.


One can imagine, if they try, what good can come of evil. There are of course things that happen that are terrible but seemingly arbitrary that we may never have answers to. I don't believe God is obligated to furnish those answers necessarily. All that is really necessary is that I trust Him, because I have spent time with Him and know Him.



Mark bey: Me either I tend to do more praying in bad times as well, children start calling their parents frequently when in need of money. Nothing in that last statement answers my question however. God furnishes you guys on questions that you want to answer. The fact is this according to all Christians I have ever talked with, god knows everything that is going to happen, god created the universe and everything in it including the laws of nature that man lives by, god created human beings flawed on purpose, then he gave those flawed human beings capacity to commit murder. Now if all of those things are accurate then it sounds to that the god Christians believe in must want things the way they currently are.



You may think me a fool and reckon that I am blind for trusting someone that I cannot see with my own eyes and touch with my hands, but the invisible God gives me very real peace and tranquility in chaotic and confusing times.

How else can God have mercy, forgive transgression, and be a beacon of light and peace unless he first allows sin, darkness, confusion, and chaos to be manifested in His creation?


Mark bey: Bull frog I don’t think you’re a fool for your practicing your religious beliefs. However I do think it is foolish and even retarded to insist that all others who don’t practice that belief are going to hell and wont get into heaven especially when god allows other religions (which according to Christians wont get you to heaven) to exist in the first place. The notion that only Christians are going to heaven when there are a billion muslims on the planet is more that I can tolerate. The notion that only Christians are going to heaven when their have been billions of people who have lived and died without ever been exposed to Christianity is more than I can tolerate without become coming enraged.

mark said...

@ Angie

"You may think me a fool and reckon that I am blind for trusting someone that I cannot see with my own eyes and touch with my hands, but the invisible God gives me very real peace and tranquility in chaotic and confusing times." Bullfrog

This comment, along with all of Bullfrog's comments, really touched me. I absolutely identify. It wasn't my degrees, my relationship with my mother and father, or anything here on earth that stopped me from killing myself during very difficult times in my life. It was the peace of God that transcends all human understanding that saved me from the pain of this world.

Call me stupid... I call myself alive and sain...


mark bey: I don’t think you’re a fool Angela in fact I think you are a wise and thoughtful person (unlike a lot of other Christians) and I have a lot of respect for you. I also think you are a Christian who practices real spirituality and not just symbol and ritual worshiping. I’m glad you didn’t kill yourself (because the American black population needs you) and I am happy that you were delivered from your pain. But there are lots of people who prayed and prayed and weren’t delivered from their pain or shown understanding by the Christian god you believe in (me included) and the fact of the matter is this, there are a lot of people in unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own who pray to god and their situation never changes, sometimes things get worse. Some people are just more fortunate that others, some people just have a better attitude than other some people pray and the cancer goes into remission some people pray and the cancer doesn’t. Also I never called you stupid if you could show where I called you stupid please make that quote available.


”Mark, you don't have to get it and that's fine. But don't try to shove your rhetoric down believer’s throats. You don't think Christians shouldn't Bible beat you with their "opinions about God." Then don't insist that people should agree with you.”

Mark bey: Get it, Get what exactly. I have tried my absolute best to find truth and Christianity nor was any other religion the way for me to find that truth. I have also tried my best to live my life as righteously as I know how and I do not need to be a Christian (or follow any other religion) to make me want to treat everyone human being with the utmost respect and love. So now I don’t get Christianity or any other religion and as far as I’m concerned every last religion known to man is a fairy tale. Why do I say this, because according to Christians the bible is the truth, but then god allows Islam, Judaism and hundreds of other religions to exist which aren’t the truth? If god really wants people to follow and believe in Jesus Christ this is something I cannot understand. It makes not one shred of sense to me at all if god wants people to come to him through his word (the bible) why he would allow other religions ( remember there are a billion Muslims and they have a religious text also) to exist that aren’t his word. That irony is something I can’t figure out and believe you me I have thought and though and thought on such topics. Also Christians have a long history of bible beating, harassing even killing people who don’t believe In Christianity. I don’t insist that people agree with me even though you did agree with one of the main points which is that people not married having sex should be using protection especially when you factor in the aids and out of wedlock birthrate of black America. If you believe that folks should be using condoms if not married then to me it follows that you should also believe that the preachers should preach on this message of practicing safe sex from the pulpit. They could say something along the lines of


“I’m not advocating sex before marriage but the reality is that over 60% of black children are born out of wedlock and aids are ravaging the black community. Their fore I (preacher such and such) suggest that all of you who are currently having sex before marriage practice safe sex and advise your children and grandchildren to practice safe sex to help stop the spread of aids”……

Now please explain to me what is so hard about a statement and a position like that especially considering the aids and out of wedlock birthrate in the black community and the threat of contracting HPV. I find it pretty odd and hypocritical that folks who didn’t wait until marriage to have sex would not endorse a policy of the preachers preaching on safe sex (condom use) from the pulpit when we all know what is happening because of out of wedlock sex in the black community. When you add in the fact that most black Christians and preachers don’t wait until marriage their non leadership and ignoring of this issue is more than I can tolerate.


” Mark, I will not clog your bog with my personal feelings on this matter. The truth is that I don't need validation for what I choose to believe. Brotha, you don't know what I have gone through and how my faith has been challenged. So, there's really nothing that can be said on a blog to shake my faith.


You and I have already exchanged opinions on this similar subject over at Field's blog. And at the end of the day, I respect your opinions. I just thought I would share this little tid bit before I walked away from this discussion completely.”

Mark bey: Angela you are welcome to comment on my blog anytime you want about your personal feelings on this matter or. I never said anything about you or any other Christian needing validation from me. Also you don’t know what I’ve been through I have had my faith in Christianity (and all other religions) not only challenged but shattered. Now I adopt a different brand of spirituality that doesn’t tell folks who don’t share my view that they are going to burn in hell for their beliefs. Although I don’t believe in Christianity or any other religion I still believe one can practice spirituality and be Christian, Muslim, and Jewish ECT. I do not think you are stupid nor did I imply that you were stupid. I actually think very highly of you. But enough is enough especially when it comes to issues that are killing black folks it is a fact that the black church has ignored the aids issue. This is one of the reasons I am enraged at the black church. Not only did they ignore the aids issue they tried to blame it on gay people now how sick and evil is that.

Lastly I am not saying that all black churches and Christians are full of it and hypocritical but I will say this I live in N.E Washington DC and there are literally 20 churches within a 15 minute walking distance from my house, but yet the community directly around those churches are not only crime ridden, but also a mess. There are many, many women who use to be nicely shaped and very attractive now wasting away because aids what’s going on is not subtle it is obvious. If I see it, then so do the preachers and Christians who attend all of those churches.

All of those churches should be providing aids testing and treatment to the public because it is more than obvious that that is what is needed amongst many other things. Until the black church develops a plan on how to fight, prevent and treat aids as far as I’m concerned they are clowns. Until black Christians force the preachers to show leadership on issues like aids, education, healthcare, financial literacy and mentoring these young black men (who by the way are in deep trouble) then I will continue with my holy and righteous crusade to make the black church do right until the majority of them begin showing thoughtful leadership.

Angela it is not christians like you I have problem with it is churches and christians that are hypocritical on the premarital sex thing and are refusing to show leadership on issues killing black folk.

Bullfrog said...

"Now if all of those things are accurate then it sounds to that the god Christians believe in must want things the way they currently are."

This is true; I will never argue that God isn't sovereign over all circumstances. Your question seems to be more to the motive of God when He allows terrible circumstances. My answers to this end are based on what I have come to learn by reading the Bible and knowing God in the small way that I do. When I say I can not pretend to know he mind of God, I mean that my mind is finite, while His is infinite, so it is foolish to suppose I can answer every question you have about Him.

"The notion that only Christians are going to heaven when there are a billion muslims on the planet is more that I can tolerate."

I have no idea what your point is here, but you have made this statement in other conversations with me in the past.

It seems like you are defining the fairness of God according to your definition of fairness, which is common, and also a mistake. The basic problem when we (and I include myself) is we tend to put an infinite God in the finite box of our understanding. Also, it demonstrates a basic lack of humility toward the Creator. It's like you are saying, "If God isn't fair the way I want Him to be, then I refuse to follow him."

"The notion that only Christians are going to heaven when their have been billions of people who have lived and died without ever been exposed to Christianity is more than I can tolerate"

I am not sure how you can know this, so I assume it is just a guess on your part, and it is not without some bias as you have already made clear your contempt for the Christian religion. Using the same tact, isn't it just as safe to assume most people have had an opportunity to submit to the truth and refused? Once again, your premise is fairness as YOU define it, and the Living God simply is not obligated to fit your definition of "fair".

Being that the Bible teaches that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory, I would say that if God were truly fair, we would all be dead. Yet, in His abundant mercy, He made a way for us to be saved and have eternal life. Praise God that you are not fair, but infinitely merciful and kind!

Bullfrog said...

@Angie: thank you for your kind words. I thank God that you decided against taking your own life. Especially because I myself have experienced the suicide of a loved one, and understand in a real way the pain it can bring, and the pain that can cause someone to think death is the only escape.

Jesus Loves You!