I was listening to NPR a few days back. Their was a story about Ruth Graham the late wife of the Reverend billy graham. Ruth Graham was born in 1920, in china to parents who were medical missionaries from the Presbyterian church.
Mrs Graham remained a Presbyterian even though she was married to one of the worlds most influential baptist of all time. Now what I cant understand is this, why didn't Mrs. Graham convert to being a baptist if it doesn't matter which sect you are as it relates to getting to heaven. Whats so important about the individuals sects that a woman married to one of the most famous baptist in the world couldn't switch sects to his sect especially if it made no difference in getting to heaven.
Are the differences in sect not important and if they aren't important why didn't Mrs. Graham switch her sect to that of baptist. If it is important, then how come she didn't try to get the Reverend Graham to switch to being a Presbyterian. How come she didn't insist that her children be raised Presbyterian if remaining a Presbyterian was important to matters of the getting to the after life.
Now I know back in the day,the various different sects believed that all of the other group(s) were going to hell except their particular group. This is part of the reason why the Klan also harassed Catholics as well as blacks because they didn't see them or blacks as humans it is also the reason that Americans were apprehensive about voting for the CATHOLIC John Kennedy because mistrust and fear had been massaged into the American phyche and it all stems from that clause in religion that says YOU ARE GOING TO HELL IF YOU DON'T BUY WHAT I AM SAYING. After all if your going to spend eternity in hell you cant be a human being can you?
When you say someone isn't going to heaven because of their sect you really are saying they are not human beings. This thought process has led to more misery, rape, killing and pain than any other reason in human history. In the name of (insert your religion) you are allowed to do unspeakable acts as long as you were turning infidels/non believers to the TRUE word of god and you could do this because they weren't human beings and they aren't going heaven.
So using the simple but ridiculous logic of THE CLAUSE, vast swaths of humanity are labeled non human beings by various branches of religion. Different sects of Christians even label each other non human beings (claiming all others except their sect are going to hell). This is the main reason why the black church and the nation of Islam didn't work together much earlier and in a more substantive way. What if the Nation of Islam could have influenced the majority of black churches to adopt their powerful and revolutionary business and self determination programs. What if the Nation of Islam could have influenced the people in the church to get out their and hit the streets like they did in order to save black folks. How many more lost brothas and sistas could have been saved over the last 40 years. So the black community misses out on all of that enterprise that could have been developed and focused on healing our people because of mistrust between the nation of Islam and the black church essentially because of the clause. Because of the clause and the superficial but visceral divisions THE CLAUSE inspires power christian and Islamic leaders didn't work together on the behalf of black American liberty until way too much precious time had expired.
All of this finally brings me back to the point I was attempting to get at in the first place. If believersof various different sects can get to heaven then why the ridiculous clause and why the different sects that promote division . Of course you could add Islam and Judaism into the mix. When you factor all of this in you have got so many different divisions and interpretations going on it is truly sad and confusing. It is because of all of these divisions that the clause in most religions that claim only people of their sect/faith are going to heaven (are human beings) should be denounced as backwards . If I am too ever take religion seriously again this clause has to be renounced because it is backwards.
I think it is time for the clause to go the way of the dinosaurs as it is an extremely backwards and retarded and divisive way of thinking. I know Ruth and Billy Graham expected to see each other in the promise land in spite of some retarded clause that says only my brand of spirituality will get you to heaven. Peace.
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I'm not sure what you mean by religious sects seeing other sects as "non-human" (like Baptists seeing Apostolics as animals?). I would guess that Ruth Graham didn't bother to switch to Baptist precisely because it is irrelevant.
There are alot of different subjects within church doctrine (and I am referring specifically to bible believing churches) that cause division. Such as, some churches teach that you MUST be baptised, or that you must speak in tongues, and various others. These areas are what I consider to be non-essential truths because they have nothing to do with salvation but more to do with living for God.
If a pastor wants to encourage the congregation to eat vegetarian because it benefits the human body, I'm fine with that; if that same pastor teaches it is a sin to eat meat, than he needs to come correct with some Scripture to prove that is a command from God.
Most Bible believing churches agree on the essentials: Jesus being the Son of God, the Trinity, teaching God's word alone.
Churches dividing over non-essentials is ridiculous and wastes time and energy that could be used to help others. But it's human nature to divide ourselves isn't it? Blame humans for division, not God.
I agree bullfrog. If there is any blame to be given here, it should not be place on God. I believe division has occurred between different groups of people because of structure. There will always be some people who want their connection to God different from others. Being raised in a bible teaching family and church, all of the division is nonsense. In my bible, John 14:6 says, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Now I know different people have different beliefs. I respect that, but in my opinion, division does not help bring us together whether we believe in the same thing or not. The CLAUSE is irrelevant, and it has no ground to stand on. It only survives thorough those who practice it. Great post mark. Keep it up.
@ bullfrog
“ Such as, some churches teach that you MUST be baptised, or that you must speak in tongues, and various others.”
Mark bey: What a crock of non sense. Exactly who interprets the people speaking in tongues and how does one now that the interpreter is qualified to interpret when someone is speaking in tongues. What non sense.
“These areas are what I consider to be non-essential truths because they have nothing to do with salvation but more to do with living for God”
Mark bey: I’m glad you qualified that that is your interpretation some folks consider things you think are non essential indeed. One of my peeves with religions is that we are subject to different peoples (some of whom are not quailed) interpretation of religion and which truths are essential and which are non essential.
“if that same pastor teaches it is a sin to eat meat, than he needs to come correct with some Scripture to prove that is a command from God.”
Mark bey: I wish more of you Christians would have kept this sentiment when the preachers were promoting hatred against gay folks. I wish you Christians would have been stand up enough to request proof from the preachers that god was going to curse gay folks with aids. Which is a fairytale that the church propagated by the way. This is another prime reason my hostility towards all religions grows and continues because churches will promote things they cant prove or even offer a credible argument for which may happen to be hurtful to a whole population of human beings.
“Most Bible believing churches agree on the essentials: Jesus being the Son of God, the Trinity, teaching God's word alone.”
Mark bey: But my problem with this is, not everyone born was exposed to the teachings of Jesus, the trinity and gods word alone. It still doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever if that alone is gods word then why are their places were people are never exposed to those teachings. For example folks from the Hawaiian islands never heard of Jesus before 300 hundred years ago so it doesn’t make sense to me that only people who believe in Jesus Christ would get to heaven especially considering that billions of folks have lived and died without any knowledge of Jesus at all. That fact alone is a serious reason why I think all religions are fairy tales.
Now I will say this some religious people do practice actual spirituality but most don’t.
"I agree bullfrog. If there is any blame to be given here, it should not be place on God. I believe division has occurred between different groups of people because of structure."
Mark bey: If god exist the way christians claim he does and he is all powerful and all knowing how can the blame not be placed on god?
After all isnt god perfect? Isnt it impossible for god to create the world and universe in any way other than he intented too?
Dindnt god create man without the posiblitity of bieng perfect. So if man later acts out that imperfectness and god create man that way then the way I see god is responsible for everything that has ever happend and the way happened.
Because if god had wanted things to be different then it would be ridicilous to thing that they wouldnt be different because once again god is all powerful, knowing and dosent make mistakes.
First off, nothing is impossible for God. Second, He does what he wants to do, when he wants to do it. We have no right to question his authority, or blame him for our wrong doing.
"Dindnt god create man without the posiblitity of bieng perfect. So if man later acts out that imperfectness and god create man that way then the way I see god is responsible for everything that has ever happend and the way happened."
This is where you are wrong. God did create man perfect. When he created Adam and Eve, man was perfect. All of that changed when Adam and Eve sinned, which unfortunately made everyone after them not perfect. They sinned because of the misguided influence from the devil. So no, God is not the blame and he shouldn't be. What he did do was give his only begotten son Jesus, who died for everyone's sins past, present, and future. And because of Jesus, we can now work toward being perfect again. You may not understand, or choose to understand, but know this. God is definitely not the blame.
"Mark bey: But my problem with this is, not everyone born was exposed to the teachings of Jesus, the trinity and gods word alone. It still doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever if that alone is gods word then why are their places were people are never exposed to those teachings. For example folks from the Hawaiian islands never heard of Jesus before 300 hundred years ago so it doesn’t make sense to me that only people who believe in Jesus Christ would get to heaven especially considering that billions of folks have lived and died without any knowledge of Jesus at all. That fact alone is a serious reason why I think all religions are fairy tales."
You have clearly shown that you aren't willing to believe anything. How do you know, 100% that those people in Hawaii and those other people who died without hearing about Jesus, did not actually hear about Jesus? If you are alive today, you haven definitely not met each and every single person of the "billion" you speak of. What you fail to realize is, its not about those who have already died. It about what you are going to do now, while you are living. It is your decision. It is your choice.
@ annointed one
“ This is where you are wrong. God did create man perfect. When he created Adam and Eve, man was perfect. All of that changed when Adam and Eve sinned, which unfortunately made everyone after them not perfect.”
Mark bey: Wait a minute my friend, who created the devil who conned adam and eve and knew when, where and how the devil would attempt to deceive man. All of these evil things the devil did god already knew the devil was going to do them and HAD the power to stop them from happening but didn’t. Also who created the concept of evil in the first place but god? Also if god did make adam and eve perfect then please explain to me how it was possible for them to commit sin in the first place. Also according to what I just read by you god didn’t create man perfect he created adam and eve perfect then he set the game up so that the rest of man could never be perfect so it is not accurate to say that he created man perfect if only 2 human beings have ever been perfect. Also I had absolutely nothing to do what Adam and eve did I believe that god had a lot more to do with what they did than I or anyone else living today so why I have to suffer for the sins of people who lived thousands of years ago. I will not accept blame for that.
“And because of Jesus, we can now work toward being perfect again. You may not understand, or choose to understand, but know this. God is definitely not the blame. “
mark bey: Work towards being perfect? Doesn’t the bible clearly state that we are born into sin without the possibility of ever being perfect? Man being perfect again has more to do with god than man, man has no choice over the fact the he is not perfect god does. Let’s get something straight if I don’t understand it aint because I haven’t tried I just don’t believe that any religions (Christian, Muslim, Jewish) are accurate accounts of how the world was created or of the god who created this world we live in. God is more to blame for what has happened in the world than I am or any other human being that has ever existed because god created the game, the rules of the game and the deeply flawed human beings who play the game. Sorry anointed one you can’t say that god is all powerful and perfect but not give him the blame for the world being the way it is. If god is not happy with the way things are going he can certainly change then anytime he sees fit. By the way I don’t believe that god is a male or a female I only say he because I am use to saying he.
Well if thats what you believe, so shall it be. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. You are going to believe whatever you want to.
" You have clearly shown that you aren't willing to believe anything. How do you know, 100% that those people in Hawaii and those other people who died without hearing about Jesus, did not actually hear about Jesus?"
mark bey: This statement is utter foolishness, I have shown I clearly DONT believe in christianity or any other religion. To say I am not willing to believe anything is incredibly silly on your part, please show me were I gave you this impression.
I have my own brand of spirituality that works for me which has nothing to do with christianity or Jesus Christ and which does not claim that folks who disagree with my beliefs are going to hell.
As for your response to the queston of those folks living on the hawaiian not being exposed to christianity I find it what you said to be a lot of sillyness. It is a historical fact that that none of those folks where christians before the europeans got their. Their are no christian symbols or churches before europeans got their that is a fact. If you do have proof that those folks were exposed to christianity I sure would like to see.
Of course non of your fantastic and ridicilous assertions of their being christians or exposure to christianity on the hawaiian islands would even be neccessary if not for that retarded and backwards clause in christianity that states folks who dont share their view of the creator is going to hell.
Once again the retarded clause is influencing intelligent people (like yourself) to say ridicilous things.
Yeah, and I'm surprised that a so-called intelligent brother as yourself failed to realized that I do not totally agree with the clause. But hey its your world. Say what you want, and do what you want. You may say the things I say are ridiculous, and that fine. You are entitled to your own opinion, and that's exactly what your argument is. You know what though. You remind me of a person in the bible named Paul. You might want to see what happened to him. You and him show a similar resemblance. Good luck brother.
" You are going to believe whatever you want to."
mark bey: As you will believe whatever you want to the difference is this my spiritual beliefs dont insist that anyone is going to burn in hell for eternity simply not believing what I believe.
I can assure you I have spent many nights starting from when I was a child searching for the truth, for some folks it is christianity, for some it is Islam for others it may be a different religion.
I started out a christian and breaking away from christianity was the most painful thing Ive ever done in my life.
I didnt do it because I WANTED to believe or didnt want to believe a given spiritual philosophy I broke with christianity because after years of praying,searching, studying and seeking truth it finally became evident to me that christianity didnt make any sense to me and that god was not speaking to me through christianity.
One thing that makes me sick to my stomach about christians is that they cant seem to understand or to comprehend that maybe god speaks to different people in different spiritual languages (religions),you folks arrogantly assume that just because god spoke to you through christianity that he would speak to all others through christianity.
Obviously folks who practice Islam, Judaism etc dont beleive that god is speaking to them through christianity so once again I think it is time to get rid of that retarded and backwards clause that says anyone who does not share my religion is going to hell.
Peace annointed one I hope you understand the (although it appears you are not capable of understanding) that just because someone is not a christian and believes in jesus does not mean they dont or arent willing to believe in something else.
" Yeah, and I'm surprised that a so-called intelligent brother as yourself failed to realized that I do not totally agree with the clause."
mark bey: Ok you did express the sentiment that the clause was divisive. So I should and do give you full credit for that because a lot of people are still holding on to it.
My rage at the clause stems from conversations I have had with Jehovah witnesses who claim only they are going to heave, and from catholics who have actually told me that only 100,000 people are going to heaven. No other christians except them are going to heaven. I have also heard a lot of foolishness from them boys in the nation of islam ( they claim its truth, you know the spaceships and Yacub the big headed scientist) packaged under the guise of religion (truth) when they cant even offer a decent argument for their beliefs.
As long as your not telling me Im going to hell me and you are absolutely cool as fan annointed 1. Also I inspite of what you may think I do respect the fact that you are honest enough to admit that the clause is backwards and divisive.
I hope you are not upset with me, it is not my intention to purposely annoy anyone I just believe if you believe something and you are going to proclaim it is the truth you should be able to offer a credible argument for it. Not an emotional one.
Lastly please understand that I have tried to and I am continously trying to do everthing I can to get to heaven if their is a heaven.
No harm intended annointed 1
I totally agree. There was no harm intended my way either Mark. It is great that both of us know how to voice our opinions in a respectful way. Even though we do not agree on everything, (who does) I commend you for taking a stand on what you believe. Keep writing because I will definitely keep reading your posts.
I have said it before in conversations with you and I will say it again:
The fundamental difference between Christianity and EVERY other world religion is who they believe Christ to be. So, no, they are not equal. In fact, they disagree on alot of important historical facts. These differences in doctrine are significant enough to merit our attention and consideration.
It is foolishness to just wave your hand and say, "All are equal" in light of this.
" I have said it before in conversations with you and I will say it again:
The fundamental difference between Christianity and EVERY other world religion is who they believe Christ to be. So, no, they are not equal"
mark bey: The important word is belief, just because you believe something doesnt make it true or dosent mean that what you believe is the only relevant or important truth.
So religions may not be the same/equal but as far as Im concerned the fact that their are several different ones (including christianity, morman, catholic, Jehova witness) says to me it is not important to god which religion one chooses as long as one lives righteously.
Otherswise god would not have allowed other religions (which arent his word) to exist to confuse folks looking for him. Peace.
OH MY GOODNESS I CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED THIS POST...
So the fact that several different religions exist means God MUST approve of all of them, in spite of the fact they all disagree?
You have to commit intellectual suicide to believe that.
You said God only cares that we live righteously; but who decides what is "righteous"? Mark Bey? Bullfrog? How about Gautama Buddha? The societal definition of right and wrong changes with the times and with culture, so it is no real standard.
True righteousness must be defined, and done so by a being capable of acting righteously, which excludes mankind in my opinion.
The Nazis believed they were acting righteously when they executed millions of people who they believed "threatened" the existence of Germanic people.
It is the same for truth; absolute truth must have a source, we don't just define as we go.
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