This is a paragraph from a letter addressed to President Bush asking him to show leadership on the Dafur issue. This letter is endorsed by some very prominent and high profile black leaders some of which are preachers.
“Mr. President, we request that you demonstrate authentic leadership. Among the strategies you should pursue are:
1) immediate deployment of a robust UN peacekeeping force;
2) a no-fly zone over Darfur;
3) freezing the assets of all Sudanese officials involved in the genocide; and
4) pressure on China, a major buyer of Sudan's oil, to use its economic leverage to hold the Sudanese government accountable http://nativeson.wordpress.com/2007/01/16/naacps-open-letter-to-president-bush-the-time-is-now-for-sudan/
I have nothing against our black leaders or even those from the church bieng involved in the struggle to bring peace and justice to Africa but on the other hand I am profoundly disgusted and enraged over the lack of leadership and common sense shown especially by the black church on the aids issue. Below is a list of all of the preachers who signed the letter to George Bush. I did a google search entitled (Insert any of the Names below) position on aids in the black community.
1) Jamal Bryant
I could find no important statement addressing the aids crisis of black America.
2) Al Sharpton http://www.nationalactionnetwork.net/index.html
I could find no substantial statement or initiative on a plan to prevent aids in the black community, from Al Sharpton
3) Reverend Kimberly Barnes, Metropolitan A.M.E. Church
http://metropolitanamec.org/On-Demand%20Webcasts_Archive.htm I could find no position or statement or initiative on a plan to prevent and treat aids in the black community from Reverend Barnes,
4) Reverend Walter Fauntroy
I could find no statement or initiative on a plan to prevent and treat aids in the black community from the Reverend Walter Fauntroy
5) Bishop Vashti Mckenzie
http://www.ame-church.com/ She actually has made some statements concerning aids although she still has not endorsed a robust policy of condom use and distribution amongst black people who are not married.
6) Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Trinity United Church of Chicago
http://www.tucc.org/ministries.htm , I could find no signifigant initiative to fight aids in the black community although he dosent appear to be homophobic.
What I cannot not understand is why the church has not endorsed a policy of advocating condom use for unmarried black people as it is the most effective method of greatly reducing the spread of aids. I cannot understand why the black church has not advocated for testing of the entire black american community, I cannot understand why the black church has not created a united front to prevent the spread of aids in the black community as well as testing and treatment for those infected. I cannot understand why the black church structure has not instituted a policy of testing all of their members as well as others in the black community especially in light of Congresswoman Elanor Holmes Norton bold and necessary action of bieng tested publicly with the Congresional Black Cacause.
It is a well known fact that the rate of aids amongst black people worldwide including america is at epidemic levels. All of america was told starting over 15 years ago, by the surgeon general in no uncertain terms that aids was not a “gay” disease, but in fact it was spread by having unprotected sex with people infected with Hiv, straight or gay.
In fact here is a quote taken from the surgeon general yearly aids report of 1992.
“ How HIV Spreads HIV is in the blood, semen, or vaginal secretions of an infected person. The two main ways of spreading HIV are having sex and using contaminated needles to inject drugs. In addition, infected women can pass HIV infection to their newborns. Unprotected Sex Is Dangerous "Unprotected sex" is sex without a latex condom. HIV can be in semen (including the first drop of fluid, even before ejaculation) and in vaginal fluids. HIV can enter the body through the vagina, penis, rectum, and, when engaging in oral sex, through the mouth. Anal sex is especially risky for both men and women. Any form of unprotected sex is risky, including oral sex. Although condoms are not perfect, they are highly effective in preventing HIV and other STDs when used.”
Below are a list of facts that I believe to be undisputable and which are a total and scathing codemnation of the black churches activities to deal with the aids threat to black America.
Below are facts that I believe to be undisputable.
1) The surgeon general had been reported dating back to 1992 that aids was not caused by bieng gay, but long after 1992 the church was still dogmatically preaching that aids was a curse against homosexuals by god.
2) Many black single church going women have been infected with aids since 1992,long after the time Magic Johnson and Authur Ashe had already went public stating they had contracted hiv through heterosexual activity and a blood transfusion.
3) Black women make up over 73% of all new hiv cases and black children make up 63% of all known cases amongst children of hiv even though black people only comprise 13% percent of the population.
4) Most people black or white do not wait until they are maried to have. This is an obvious, well known and accepted fact by the general public. It just as well known in the black community and church, yet they will not adjust thier views to robustly promote condom use for all unmarried black people having sex. www.neowin.net/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t523027.html
5) Since the early 90's thier has been several documented cases of people knowingly infected others with hiv in fact many of these cases have been on the news over the years. http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/1991/LT910110.html
6) Since the early 1990's commercials have aired on the radio and tv announcing that aids was spread thru having unprotected sex with hiv infected people, still no official policy of promoting condom use amongst unmarried black people.
7) Church officials were fully aware of the fact most black people (as well as the general public) have sex before marraige, they absolutely were fully aware of it because of the high out of wedlock birthrate and abortion rate amongst black people and still no official policy promoting condom use amongst black people.
8) Only widespread condom use, clean needle programs and effective drug rehabilitation along with prevention programs can stop the out of control spread of aids in the black community.
9) After 1992 their had been numerous prosecutions of people for purposely infecting people others with aids, it was also accepted fact at the time the you could not tell who had aids by looking at them, all of this has been reported in the news and media at various times over the last 15 years.
Inspite of all of the following items still no official policy in the black church to promote condom use and safe sex amongst unamarried black people.
All of the assertions above are general and well known facts. It is more than obvious to this writer that the black churches campaign to blame gays for aids has resulted in disastrous results for black ameria. It is obvious that the black churches unfair and mean spirited attack on gays has allowed millions of black americans to believe that it was alright to engage in dangerous sexual behavior . After all the church was still dogmatically emphasizing aids as curse against gays by god and not teaching and emphasizing that aids had nothing to do with bieng gay and everything to do with having unsafe sex.
It is also obvious that the black churches prejudice, homophobic and hostile attitutde towards gays is a part of the reason why black people have been so mortally slow to address the issue of aids in our community.
The fact is that there are black women in the church who are Hiv positive some of who have children and unless these women are tested and treated they could end up dying sooner rather than later and what effect would the death of women infected with hiv have on their children and black america. I have to believe that if more preachers had been honest about the realities of the world and advocated for condom use amongst all unmarried people thousands of single black women would not have been infected with hiv.
In fact if their had been rigorous endorsement of that principle it well may have led to more responsible behavior on the part of millions more black Americans. What makes the churches behavior particularly reprehensible is the fact that black women who make up the overwhelming majority of black Americans who support and make the church as powerful as it is have not gotten the wise and thoughtful advise all churches should be given.
Black women are the primary ones who provide the nurturing and parenting of all black kids any threat to these women is a threat to thier kids and all of black america. When the church failed to take leadership and give sound advice on the aids issue they not only endangered black America but also the strength and prosperity of the black church and larger community.
Now the excuse for the church not talking honestly about this and other issues of dire concern to black people is their so called conservatism which is a myth. Also lets take a look at this so called conservatism. From my experiences black preachers are no more conservative than any other group of preachers. Are they any more conservative in their style of dress, behavior, lifestyle, preaching style? Absolutely not.
The only thing conservative about black preachers is their narrow interpretation of the bible and their selective use of morality in demonizing gay people but them basically allowing. Last time I check premarital and adulterous sex were sins as well as homosexuality but I do not remember the church demonizing people in our community about the totally out of control out of wedlock birthrate, crime, fatherless children ect.
It is a fact that all of those things have had an extremely detrimental impact on the black community. So the churces decision to focus overwhelmingly on homosexuality while ignoring promiscuous sex which along with not practicing safe sex has led to the outrageous aids statistics amongst black people. Thier silence is not conservatism it pure hypocrisy and neglect.
In fact I consider their behavior to be 1 billion percent unacceptable. The black church should be held to task on this matter and strongly advised to come up with a plan to mitigate and deal with the ongoing crisis.
Over the last ten years single black women who were members of various churches have contracted aids while bieng members of those churches primarily through having unsafe sex. In spite of the well known fact that you cannot tell by looking at someone if they have Hiv the preachers did not advised people they knew were having unprotect sex to use a condoms and protect themselves.
We (black americans) deserved more out of ourselves we derserve more out of our preachers and other leaders. It is the preachers job to lead by example and in a thoughtful and intellectual way that promotes thought, reasonable and healthy behavior.
It is this writers opinion that all of these things I have stated are true, can be proven and when all of the facts are added up clearly prove negligence on the part of the black church as it relates to this issue.
Conclussion
The black church is guilty of criminal neglect because even long after being warned by the federal government, magic Johnson and Authur Ashe on this issue they still are not displaying common sense leadership on the aids issue. They are guilty because they failed to be thoughtful and curios after the surgeon general and leading government experts were warning all of america about aids and exactly how it was spread. Instead the black church leading on this issue and educating the black communtiy about how this disease was spread they failed to refine themselves and their message sufficiently to allow them to grow, evolve and mature into higher truths and positions. Because of prejudices and biases they choose to focus on the on a narrow interpretation of the bible which allowed them to blame aids on homosexuality and not be called on this by the larger black community. This narrow and ignorant interpretation had various negative and compounding effects on the black community including.
1) Fostering a climate which pressured gay men into pretending they were straight, which resulted in a certain amount of gay men getting married but still carrying on with men, which resulted in some men bringing diseases home.
2) Fostering a climate where men and women who are gay feel ostracized, ridiculed and not taken seriously
3) Allowed black people to continue to have unsafe sex in spite of the danger because after all aids is a curse on homosexuals by god isn’t it?
4)Allowed too many black people to practice dangerous behavior (unprotected sex) because the church had falsely asserted that aids was a curse against homosexuality.
This fairytale amateurish interpretation of christianity was flawed and harmful from the start because it mainly focused on condemning homosexuality which is not the only sin that people committ. Unmarried people where having unprotected sex all the time and that is a sin as well but the preachers didn’t signify about that did they? Also children born out of wedlock has been a gigantic problem within the black over the last 30 years still the no policy by the black church to promote safe sex amongst all unmarried black people having sex.
Because of an extremely narrow interpretation of Christianity/spirituality they chose to vilify homosexuals while excusing/ignoring behavior that was resulting in a 70% out of wedlock birthrate for black children, an hiv death rate 13 times as high for black women as for white and the sad fact that black kids make up 60% of children with aids.
The fact is the black church was warned exactly what was up with Hiv along with the rest of america many, many, many times over the last 25 years and they chose to present fairytale reasons for what was happening while black children were being born infected at much higher rates than all other children in america. How many lives would have been saved if the black church had been proactive on this issue.
What confirms the churches behavior as unacceptable even more is when you consider the fact that preachers, grown men and women have sex outside of marraige and yet they will not advise young boys and girls to practice safe sex and to use condoms, even though we all know they are having sex. The church hasnt done this inspite of the fact that all preachers know what it is like to be 14 year old boys having damn near uncontrolable sexual urges, they can forgive a 60 year old Jesse Jackson for making love children outside of wedlock but they will not advise young black teens to practice safe sex when it is a fact that young peoples urges are much stronger than a 60 year old preacher who is supposedly called by god but still has a child out of wedlock. How on earth can black preachers expect black teens to wait until marraige when Jesse not only gets his freak outside of marraige but makes love children. This is utter non sense and madness on the part of the black community and church to pretend that folks are gonna wait until marraige when every one knows this isnt reality.
They allow Jesse Jackson to continue to call himself a preacher after making a love child outside of marraige during the time of aids. But they dont give thoughtful advise to young black boys who are experiences urges a lot stronger than the urges that that lead Jesse to having a love child outside of marraige. The dispicable part of the black church refusal to address the fact that most people have sex before marraige is this, a young folks sexual urges are stronger than at anytime in thier life and still the church will not lead on the issue of safe sex even after famous black preachers who are old are proven not to be able to control themselves. I consider this pure hypocrisy.
Lastly the black church dosent get to put their heads down and pretend that aids or any other dangerous real world reality don’t exist which is exactly what they have done on the aids issue. Because of the black churches failure to deal with this issue thousands of black children now have to live with aids for which thier is no cure.
In my opinion all of these things combined add up to neglect, indifference and apathy on the part of the black church and that more than qualifies as Criminal Neglegince in my oppinion.
Now to keep it real I dont want the black church damaged in anyway. I just want them to advise people relative to the reality that we live in, not some ideal or fairytale world they wish it was. Especially when preachers themselves dont live up to those standards. I want the church to be a bastion of thought, progressive actions and common sense advice. The church can no longer engage in fairytales while black children are the majority of kids who have aids.
54 comments:
Yes, I think that the black church has dropped the ball long ago in being a haven for social change. I think of the civil rights era and the meetings in the church. We need to get back to that. Most of us don't feel like we can turn to the church if there is trouble. There are some of us who belong to a small church and there is help there at times, but if you are a person in trouble, on the street, and without family the black church would not be the place to turn. It should be. They should be the number one source in the education of the black community. I am the son of a pastor and I wish that I could say that things are different in my father's church, but it is not. Great essay. Peace~
" They should be the number one source in the education of the black community."
mark bey: You Stephen thank you very much for stopping by. The black church should jump up and down over education they way they jumped up and down over gay people. It should be education, education, education. The church should do for education what it has done for music.
This should be done because a strong unconditional focus on education will improve the lives of their congregants immediatedly in a finacial and the church would benifit finacially also.
But most importantly the church should take a progressive and restraintful view on all things.
well researched, Mark.
We already had this dialogue, so you know my position. I'm glad you brought the big guns out now.
I'll be back to post another comment after digesting all the info.
Yo DC sorry to post this extremely long post but it was written 2 months ago and I was absolutely furious over the churches backwards behavior.
Also DC please dont get the impression that impression that I think no black preachers or churches are truly getting down to bring real change in black america.
Jamal Brant for instance is doing some progressive work in the area of decreasing the murder rate in the black community. He is calling for all of the preachers to hit the streets in this effort god bless him.
DAG...MARK, I'm going to have to print this out and read it later...YOU KNOW I'OUNT TO READ...LOL. But, I'm going to give this a serious read...so I can get into with everthing...you know this is an interest of mine...in fact my anger has alread been fueled on some issues.
" in fact my anger has alread been fueled on some issues. "\
mark bey: Thank you JMW I have been going crazy over the Non leadership of people who are supposed to be inspired and annointed by god to lead.
After we talk about this issue I have got some ideas on how to force the church to take leadership.
@ (at) Mark
When you type your essays (post) don't and never type it in the post section of blogger or any other blog software type it in notepad or microsoft word or whatever you use. Then date it and title it. Then go post it in the blogger post section and click publish.
Save the stuff you type in a notepad, microsoft, or whatever you document and title it essays or post then when ever you want to type up something go to your documents and click on essays or posts or whatever name you gave it.
This will make sure you never lose a post again if you do, then go back to your documents and copy it again, and paste it to blogger.
Good to see you blogging.
Thank you Ghostface. Peace my westcoast brotha.
@ (at) Mark
I would have come by and commented sooner but I have been busy, real busy writting and buiding my new website look.
Peace 2 U my W. D.C. Brotha
OK... I'm finished...lol.
Now, Mark my dear brother and new buddy...you've raised some very valid points, but my mind goes to this thought and a previous quote from Frederick Douglass (I have a headache and can't remember verbatim) but it pretty much spoke on the religious leaders who rally together for causes in afar off places while neglecting issues on their doorstep.
NOW, as a Black Christian Woman I find myself effected by this topic on many levels.
1) You're sooo right, with all the money and power floating through such 'righteous'hands, there should be more involvement in this area...I mean...they can collectively do so much for the matter near and far.
2) I think the greatest offense to me (in regard to the church) is the lack of serious attention to ANY issue. The way they've allowed things to go on even within their own doors...the negative face they've given to the faith...the hypocritical ways in which they've conducted themselves and th fact that they've caused so many of the Lord's sheep to be scattered. I think the Church as an organized religion is the primary reason you've got so many people, black people claiming 'spirituality' over 'religion'.
I hold the church accountable for so many things...that while reading your post, I just couldn't contain myself. It's been a minute since I've been to church myself and it's a real shame, because I really want to be there, but then I go..and something works my nerves, I've got to get it together...but I commune with God daily, so He'll get me together soon enough.
sorry for the long comment but I was trying to match your long post...LOL.
" I mean...they can collectively do so much for the matter near and far."
mark bey: This is the reason why I am furious over thier non sense.
"I think the Church as an organized religion is the primary reason you've got so many people, black people claiming 'spirituality' over 'religion'. "
mark bey: This is exactly what I claim. As a disclaimer if I had been around christians like you and DC I would most likely still be a christian I consider you to excellent human biengs. But as it is I have developed an intense dislike for all religions.
However I am an extremely spiritual individual.
Also like you said in the post over on your blog thier are things we can do to bring change. My fundemental point in writing this post is that the black church needs to start addressing certain issues destroying our people asap.
I also have some ideas to make change that I didnt put in this post that will come in another post. The most important thing to do in my oppinion is to force the black church(preachers) to debate in a public formatt for all to see and embarass them intellectually into doing what they are supposed as people who claim to be touched by god.
Also JMW you can right any lenght post you want to.
yes Mark...it's such a shame. I'd seriously like to have a talk with one of the pastors here...just give him the view from the top...LOL let them know what 'WE' the people think...and fyi dc and I aren't a unit...lol, but I thank you for those kind words...I like when something good shows without me knowing.
" LOL let them know what 'WE' the people think...and fyi dc and I aren't a unit...lol"
mark bey: I know this you are in philly hes in clevland baby girl, I know that DC is also a christian but he dosent go to church regulary for some but not all of the reasons I bit#h about.
But I sense in the both of you guys terrific and sincere people and I believe it is sincere ordinary folks like you guys who will bring change into this world.
LOL... ok, I just had to say that...you know I'm kinda outspoken...can't really keep my mouth closed at times...lol
"LOL... ok, I just had to say that...you know I'm kinda outspoken..."
mark bey: Just be yourself, Id rather be around folks who didnt like me but told me the truth than to be around folks who do like me but wont tell me truth.
Plus debate is great even if it gets heated as long as its respectful. Peace.
LOL...Mark I KNOW...KNOW...KNOW THAT'S RIGHT...I CAN'T STAND FAKE PEOPLE. But, there's no other truth to be told...I've liked you from the moment I read your first comment (first to me) on Mr. Fields page...so that's a done deal dude...LOL.
hey mark....I reread and had to digest all that information. JMW: dang did u have to say it like that. I'm sure tha tnoone thinks of us as a "unit" like that anyway.
I appreciate the sentiments and I return them in kind.
I agree with JMW, you are an upstanding fellow with whom I am honored to share the blogosphere.
We are cool as a fan, brotha. No topic or disagreement can sway that when all we are doing is try ing to make improvements in the world for our people and people in general.
we great, dude!
"As a disclaimer if I had been around christians like you and DC I would most likely still be a christian I consider you to excellent human biengs."
thanks again, Mark!
Nice post. I am a bit confused on the fuss that people have with the “black church” and the issue of condom distribution.
Now, I myself am a Christian, and Black, however I would not consider myself a part of the “black church” per se, that being said, I don’t understand what is so hard to understand here.
Some churches are liberal, some are conservative, liberal pastors and congregations in some instances will support condom distribution, whereas most conservative ones won’t, they will stress abstinence and sexual restraint.
Yes, yes the black church is a political and social force in the Black community, however, the black church is still a church, therefore theological positions and more importantly spiritual concerns and thereby moral concerns also will be taken into consideration on positions that they take on important issues of the day.
Other social / political organizations who do not have spiritual mandate need to pick up the ball on this issue regarding the distribution of condemns, because it really is unfair and encroaching on the rights of churches who have a moral / ethical conflict with handing out condoms to compel them to do so.
Sorry to comment again so soon, but you wrote a few things I wanted to comment on:
1)Fostering a climate which pressured gay men into pretending they were straight, which resulted in a certain amount of gay men getting married but still carrying on with men, which resulted in some men bringing diseases home.
Sorry, can’t even begin to agree with you here. Any gay man who was stupid enough to stay in a church where they felt ostracized, is on there own, and a grown arse man who gets married for front purposes owes that deception to them damn selves.
2) Fostering a climate where men and women who are gay feel ostracized, ridiculed and not taken seriously
Then why didn’t they just LEAVE said church?
3) Allowed black people to continue to have unsafe sex in spite of the danger because after all aids is a curse on homosexuals by god isn’t it?
I am not familiar with too many churches, black, white or otherwise that promote “unsafe” sex for hetero or homo sexuals
In short, I think you are pushing alot of owness on the church for GROWN PEOPLES bad choices.
Now Mark, here is where we have serious agreement:
“The only thing conservative about black preachers is their narrow interpretation of the bible and their selective use of morality in demonizing gay people but them basically allowing. Last time I check premarital and adulterous sex were sins as well as homosexuality but I do not remember the church demonizing people in our community about the totally out of control out of wedlock birthrate, crime, fatherless children ect.”
Premarital sex and adultery are clearly sins in the Bible. Homosexual sex is NOT clearly a sin in the Bible.
I don’t think “demonizing” anyone is the mandate of any true preacher of the Gospel of the Kingdom, and I believe that Black men need to be checked on a few things by the pulpit, but first the pulpit will have to check themselves.
"Yes, yes the black church is a political and social force in the Black community, however, the black church is still a church, therefore theological positions and more importantly spiritual concerns and thereby moral concerns also will be taken into consideration on positions that they take on important issues of the day."
mark bey: DJ you know as well as I do that the majority of folks do not wait until marraige to have sex.
You cannot tell by looking at a person whether or not they have aids.
The church may claim to be conservative or liberal but they dont have a right to ignore reality of aids and the out of wedlock birthrate that has had extremely negative affects on all of black america.
Lastly its not a matter of theology if most black people are born out of wedlock, that is real what is phony is any church not advising safe sex practices when they know the reality of black america.
Also let me ask you this do you really believe that over 50 percent of black preachers wait until they are married to have sex because that is something I do not believe thier is a cynical part of me that believes at least 40 percent of black preachers step out on thier wives.
If less than 50% of black preachers have sex before marraige well then obviously not even people annointed by god obey the law of no sex before marrage and if that is the case sense they know people are going to have sex they should be given thoughtful advise to people to keep us safe.
Conservative and liberal churces know full well that most black folks dont wait until marraige to have sex the least they could do is to distribute condoms and advise parents to teach their kids safe sex in order to avoid aids and teen pregnacies.
At this point DJ it is a matter of life or death not theology.
Thank you for reading this post DJ
" Sorry to comment again so soon, but you wrote a few things I wanted to comment on:"
mark bey: DJ comment all you want I want a rigirous debate on this issue.
I am going to lunch I will comment latter on thank you for responding to this post.
Hello Mark
Let me state that though we may have different perspectives on the Church, we seem to agree that a change is necessary perhaps for different reasons, either way, I look forward to discussing our ideas on the issue
You wrote: “mark bey: DJ you know as well as I do that the majority of folks do not wait until marraige to have sex.”
I also know that the majority of folks are going to lie, cheat, steal or do whatever manner of sin also, that doesn’t mean that a person who is a preacher of the Gospel, should not preach that one should not lie, cheat, steal or do whatever manner of sin.
You wrote: “The church may claim to be conservative or liberal but they dont have a right to ignore reality of aids and the out of wedlock birthrate that has had extremely negative affects on all of black america.”
I of course don’t think that the reality of the situation should not be ignored. I believe that teaching people to be sexually responsible, i.e, not having sex with multiple partners is addressing the issue. Myself, I would teach, not to have sex before marriage AT ALL (it is possible), especially stressing this to MEN as opposed to just women, however, I would acknowledge the actuality if one IS to proceed that they should understand the consequences could range from unwanted pregnancies to death, I think there is more than enough information out there for people regarding contraception, I don’t think it’s a matter of ignorance. Most of the people you talking about listen to Jay – Z and Snoop Dogg more than Bishop Jakes of Creflo Dollar, so I know they have the information.
You wrote: “Lastly its not a matter of theology if most black people are born out of wedlock, that is real what is phony is any church not advising safe sex practices when they know the reality of black america.”
The church deals (or should deal) with what God would have people do by HIS standard, just because the reality is that people are ignoring Him and screwing everything that moves, not respecting women, etc., etc. doesn’t mean that one who is a Christian should accept this behaviour as the standard that we are called to, a CHRISTian should first demonstrate CHRIST in their own lives and perhaps people might get the point that striving against sin, is actually possible.
Did Moses change his message just because the Israelites were in debauchery? Nope, he just said it louder. Was Moses a perfect person, nope, he just had God’s perfect message.
You asked: “Also let me ask you this do you really believe that over 50 percent of black preachers wait until they are married to have sex because that is something I do not believe thier is a cynical part of me that believes at least 40 percent of black preachers step out on thier wives”
I can’t speak for people, because they are just that PEOPLE, flawed. I don’t expect them to be my reason for attempting to walk like Christ. Jesus didn’t have premarital sex, so since HE is who a Christian is following (or should be following) it comes down to the MESSEGE not the MESSENGER.
I know a lot of preachers, some good, some bad, none perfect. Jesus should be the model of a Christian, not ANY Preacher.
You wrote: “At this point DJ it is a matter of life or death not theology.”
It sure is, more than you might know. I tell you what, preachers of the Gospel should preach the GOSPEL, if they brought true SPIRITUALITY to people as opposed to dead and dry religion, if the gave the people the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM, as opposed to judgment and condemnation, I believe that would help more than anything else.
Black peoples biggest problem right now isn’t aids, it isn’t poverty, it is a lack of a serious moral compass. We say anything to each other, we do anything to each other, we have no respect for others collectively or ourselves.
If the CHURCH did what JESUS really would do, as opposed to the tired traditions and political panderings of people like Jesse Jackson or prosperity gospels of people like Creflo Dollar, if people where shown by example the value of following the MORAL mandates of Christ, respect of others, LOVE for their fellows, THAT would truly change things.
" I am not familiar with too many churches, black, white or otherwise that promote “unsafe” sex for hetero or homo sexuals"
mark bey: I didnt say that the church promoted unsafe sex. What I meant was this they promoted and fueled such a negative stigma against gay folks that a lot of men who were straight up gay pretended to heterosexual and continued to have relationships with men and brought a lot of desieases home to thier wives.
Basically they pulled a gay Jesse Jackson.
"In short, I think you are pushing alot of owness on the church for GROWN PEOPLES bad choices"
mark bey: DJ If you read my blog regularly you will see that I am no apologist for the dysfunctions and bad choices of black folks.
Having said that if black preachers and church officials are going to be in leadership. Then they have to give thoughtful advise on life matters. Not emphasing education as much as music is not thoughtful, claiming that aids is a curse on gay people by god when the bible never says that or when black women are 70% of all new aids cases is not thoughtful.
I have no idea when you mean when you say Im pushing my owness on the church their are many people who have problems with the church for some of the various reasons I mention.
Also I am not arguing the homosexual agenda but fair is fair and the prejudice that the church has promoted against gays is disgusting and hurtful.
" Sorry, can’t even begin to agree with you here. Any gay man who was stupid enough to stay in a church where they felt ostracized, is on there own, and a grown arse man who gets married for front purposes owes that deception to them damn selves."
mark bey: Some of those "stupid" gay men you are refering to have been life time memebers of the church and christians thire whole lives who have contributed to the church thier whole lives.
Now as far as the down low stuff goes I agree with you from this
perspective and that is it is reprehensible for anyone to get married knowing they will cheat on thier spouses.
By the way lots of heterosexuals brothas are guilty of this in fact too many women are guilty of this.
" Premarital sex and adultery are clearly sins in the Bible. Homosexual sex is NOT clearly a sin in the Bible.
I don’t think “demonizing” anyone is the mandate of any true preacher of the Gospel of the Kingdom, and I believe that Black men need to be checked on a few things by the pulpit, but first the pulpit will have to check themselves"
mark bey: Ok, the bible dosent say that homosexuality is sin but it does in say that it is wrong for a man to lie with a man.
Now you shold understand where IM comming from I think all religions are fairytales, every last one of them my reason for bringing this point up was to demonstrate the churces selective emphasis on the wrong of homosexuality vs premarital and adultures sex.
DJ I know demonizing folks isnt a mandate of true christianity, or the mandate of the church.
But it is a fact that the church promoted and fueled predjudice against gay folks for thier supposed sins in a way they didnt against other sinners in the black community and as far as homosexuality not clearly bieng a sin in the bible although I would agree with this you know as well as I do that that aint what the church has been insinuating.
" I also know that the majority of folks are going to lie, cheat, steal or do whatever manner of sin also, that doesn’t mean that a person who is a preacher of the Gospel, should not preach that one should not lie, cheat, steal or do whatever manner of sin. "
mark bey: # 1 lying, cheating and stealing are things that cause or can cause people great harm.
If folks have sex before marraige they are harming no one specifically if they are using precations and practicing safe sex. Over 90% of people have sex before marraige I dont think 90% of people steal, cheat or lie.
" I of course don’t think that the reality of the situation should not be ignored. I believe that teaching people to be sexually responsible, i.e, not having sex with multiple partners is addressing the issue. Myself, I would teach, not to have sex before marriage AT ALL (it is possible), "
mark bey: DJ I would agree with you on the not having sex with multiple partners is a good thing and the way to go. But if preachers supposedly annointed by god can have babies and sex out of wedlock because they are imperfect well for that very manner the church should take the position that although they dont condone premarital or extra marital sex if folks are going to do it they ought to be responsible and use condoms.
" I would acknowledge the actuality if one IS to proceed that they should understand the consequences could range from unwanted pregnancies to death, I think there is more than enough information out there for people regarding contraception"
mark bey: It dosent have to be that way the church can advise folks of the sinfulness of premarital and adulterous sex while insisting if folks do have sex and they arent married that they should most deffinately use a condom.
Also remember the bible is full of premarital and extra marital sex. Folks should not be condemed to death or having children they are not prepared to raise into productive men and women. Plus if a women dies of aids from having unprotected sex how will all of black society be affected when the children are raised in foster.
Are you familiar with the negative impact of children growing up in foster care. It just isnt the people having sex who are affected negatively it is all of society.
"I think there is more than enough information out there for people regarding contraception, I don’t think it’s a matter of ignorance. Most of the people you talking about listen to Jay – Z and Snoop Dogg more than Bishop Jakes of Creflo Dollar, so I know they have the information."
mark bey: Thier is more than enough information about marraige the church still gives marraige conseling.
The bible is one of the biggest test out their full of gods words but people still go to church every sunday to recieve thoughtful guidance about the word of god.
Also thier are a lot of single women with children, who have children while members of the church. Also thier are a lot of people who are familiar with jay z and T.D Jakes.
" a Christian should accept this behaviour as the standard that we are called to, a CHRISTian should first demonstrate CHRIST in their own lives and perhaps people might get the point that striving against sin, is actually possible."
mark bey: Look I think your bieng idealistic because the bible itself says that only christ was perfect man is flawed (and flawed through no fault of our own), the bible says it is impossible for any man to be without sin. In fact before any individaul is even born and has done anything at all the bible says you are born into sin.
Secondly striving against sin is a battle according to the bible that all human biengs are destined to loose.
" Black peoples biggest problem right now isn’t aids, it isn’t poverty, it is a lack of a serious moral compass. We say anything to each other, we do anything to each other, we have no respect for others collectively or ourselves.
mark bey: That may be true, because it usely takes bad desicions to end up with aids. But you seem to be missing the point that if a women is infected with aids and shes pregnant then the baby may get aids, also if that women dies her kids may end up in foster care and the fact is this as bad as the statistics are for blacks in general for black foster kids they are even worse.
Practicing safe and responsible sex will elimating all of the babies born with aids and all of the kids sent to foster homes because of the death of the mother.
" we have no respect for others collectively or ourselves."
mark bey: I agree with this in too many cases when it comes to our people, but this does not change the fact using condoms and birth by folks who have proven over the last 40 years that they will not wait until marraige to have sex.
That is reality regardless of what the bible says, so since some of these folks having sex have children as well the church may as well advise folks (who they know are having sex) to use precautons birth control and condoms.
Hello Mark:
You wrote: “Also I am not arguing the homosexual agenda but fair is fair and the prejudice that the church has promoted against gays is disgusting and hurtful.”
On that we would agree.
You wrote: “Some of those "stupid" gay men you are refering to have been life time memebers of the church and christians thire whole lives who have contributed to the church thier whole lives.”
That means that their priorities aren’t straight. Being a Christian is about relationship with Christ, not religion and church. I understand leaving a Church can be hard, but I tell you this, If I was a member of a Church that preached against Black people or whatever, I’d say peace see ya later.
“Now you shold understand where IM comming from I think all religions are fairytales,”
I do understand how you could get that perception, though I do not agree.
You wrote: “mark bey: # 1 lying, cheating and stealing are things that cause or can cause people great harm.”
And premarital sex doesn’t cause people great harm? I guess we look at that very differently…
You wrote: “Over 90% of people have sex before marraige I dont think 90% of people steal, cheat or lie.”
Then you must know a different 90% of people than I do. And BTW, I think 100% of people either lie, cheat or steal, at some point in their life, there was ever only one exception to this rule, and that was Christ.
You wrote: “But if preachers supposedly annointed by god can have babies and sex out of wedlock because they are imperfect well for that very manner the church should take the position that although they dont condone premarital or extra marital sex if folks are going to do it they ought to be responsible and use condoms.”
Again, that would be, in my opinion, talking out of two sides of ones mouth. It’s like saying, don’t lie, but if you do, make sure you at least remember what you lied about. The church’s role, if that church follows Christ, is to give Christ’s opinion on these matters. The world gives more than enough information about birth control and contraception.
You wrote: “Also remember the bible is full of premarital and extra marital sex.”
Of course it is, it is also full of murder, rape and incest, doesn’t mean we should encourage those things or look the other way when they happen.
Look, I have learned from experience pre marital sex, sex with multiple partners, etc., is just plain a bad idea, and harmful physically, emotionally and spiritually. We seem to differ on how important we believe it is for people to teach and preach against those things. Just because a preacher falls short, does not change the fact that the message is still correct.
" If the CHURCH did what JESUS really would do, as opposed to the tired traditions and political panderings of people like Jesse Jackson or prosperity gospels of people like Creflo Dollar"
mark bey: I agree I cant stand Creflo Dollar and I dont believe Jesse should be allowed to call himself a preacher/reverend.
Also the point you made about spirituality vs religion is one I agree with. Of course I think all religions, christianity, islam, judiasm ect should all be renounced in the name of true spirituality.
Well I can agree with part of that, Christianity (the religion) I could easily seperate from, Christ, the person or His Gospel, I never would.
" If the CHURCH did what JESUS really would do"
I stopped that comment right there, because that's the most crucial point. What Would Jesus Do, and that' s the missing piece of the puzzle. This was a serious debate going on here...I'm going to have to print it and read all the comments later.
The black church still wants the power in some cities to influence politics and have the social standing. Since in many instances we have given the church this position arising out of our previous cultural problems; perhaps we should look to another type of spirituality that will benefit our way of life. We can't stay with abstinence only religious idea, when it is killing us. That way of life requires that we all be aesthetics and be in a continual state of denial. Has any one thought that when the bible was written that puberty began much later and one could be married as soon as they entered puberty. There was also polygamy and the husband didn't have to step out, but just marry another wife. Our society has changed in two thousand years, having sex before marriage has nothing to do with adultery and I think it was a particular construct of the prevalent societies. In cultures where sex before marriage is acceptable, they still have rules that are expected to be practiced. The apostles I assume became chaste, following their calling and I think it skewed the assessment of the role of sex in the non-Christian societies they were trying to convert.
DJ Adam
"That means that their priorities aren’t straight. Being a Christian is about relationship with Christ, not religion and church. I understand leaving a Church can be hard, but I tell you this, If I was a member of a Church that preached against Black people or whatever, I’d say peace see ya later."
mark bey: I agree with this, Jesus never called himself a christian living the principles of christ and treating all humans like humans is what is really important. But what you would do if the church preached against black people, is not relevant to gay folk in church (lots of them in the choir and we all know this)some of these folks had been struggling with thier sexuality for thier entire lives.
You must remember unlike the average heterosexual black person whos family would support them in every way gay folks especially in the past couldnt even talk to their parents sometimes over this. Some gay folks have been disowned by theier families for bieng gay and when you add in demonizing them from the pulpit I consider it bafoonery especially when the majority of black children were (are) bieng born out of wedlock. As you are aware premarital sex is a sin according to the bible (however not to my way of thinking)but the church did not demonize anyone else to the level that they did gays.
In my oppinion they should be called on this and should apologize to the entire gay and lesbian community of america. Every black church should test, treat and work to prevent the spread of aids amongst black folks.
DJ Adam
"I do understand how you could get that perception, though I do not agree."
mark bey: You only agree that christianity and christ isnt a fairytale can you about other religions or other sects of christianity. The bible claims that anyone who does not believe in christ will not go to heaven which would make any holy book or religion that dosent believe that christ is the son of god a fairytale by the bibles own implication.
Which implies to my understanding that according to christians, judism, Islam, hinduism, ect are not the word of god.
To my thinking this means if you are a christian then by default you consider all other religions not true or fairytales to use my language.
The retardedness of this thinking (in my oppinion) is this, according to catholics only catholics are going to heaven, Jehova witnessess and muslims believe that only people of thier faith is going to heaven. Can a catholic Mormon, morman, baptist, non denominational christian actually prove the validity of their beliefs over other religions.
I have debated various sects and religions and I have never reiceved a credible, logical or even thoughtful explanation for believing in one type of relgious belief over another. Most of them have thier " holy text" they can go to to prove in thier minds why their particular brand of religion is right over all others.
Also exactly which bible amongst the more than 20 differnt versions is the truth or " word or god". How do we know that the king james version of the bible is the truth vs the catholic or jehova witness version of the bible.
Now if any 1 particular religion is true then that would make any differing religion a fairytale (not written or inspired by god) or invalid.
All twenty three versions of the bible cant be the truth or inspired by god so please enlighten me as to which bible I or anyone else should choose to recieve and learn god.
DJ Adam
" Of course it is, it is also full of murder, rape and incest, doesn’t mean we should encourage those things or look the other way when they happen.
Look, I have learned from experience pre marital sex, sex with multiple partners, etc., is just plain a bad idea,"
mark bey: Yeah but god dosent just condem people to death just because they sinned.
As far as Im conccerned Not practicing safe sex for black people given the current
circumstances is like playing russian rulette in my oppinion and is in fact condemming a certain amount of people to death by default.
This is my problem with your argument you are expecting or suggesting that people follow the values of the bible when in fact you cant prove that any of that stuff listed in the bible actually happened.
In fact thier are 23 differnt christian bibles or interpretation of what actually went down none of them can prove thier accuracy over any other of them.
I can prove that most folks have sex before marraige, I can prove that aids is real and I also can prove that aids is spread by having unprotected sex with someone who is infected.
I dont think black people who are suffering big time from aids and a 60% out of wedlock birthrate (and all the things that come with that) should live and make choices based on a philosophy that cant be proved and is only partially adhered to at best by most of the people who claim to be followers of that philosophy.
I agree with you about the multiple sexual partners but nothing in my lifetime has led me to believe that the majority of the population will even consider strongly waiting until marraige to have sex.
Although in a perfect world waiting until marraige would be best it aint the reality I have lived with all of my life.
Most people I know have sex lots of times before marraige.
I cannot understand what is so complicated about the church proclaiming THAT THEY DISAGREE WITH PREMARITAL SEX BASED ON BIBLICAL REASONS BUT IF FOLKS ARE GOING TO DO IT THEN THEY SHOULD USE CONDOMS AND BIRTH CONTROL and advising strongly to parents to consel their kids to practice safe sex should they decide to have sex before marraige.
After all according the bible you believe ( I think its a fairytale) all men are imperfect. Now if preachers fall victim to the temptations of the flesh specicially premarital sex and adutery then how to do you expect young black kids to resist the most powerful physical urge known to man other than eating food.
" What Would Jesus Do, and that' s the missing piece of the puzzle."
mark bey: If Jesus were around today I think (giving the reality of what actually is happening) he would advise people to wait until marraige but if they didnt wait I think he would advise them to practice safe sex.
" Has any one thought that when the bible was written that puberty began much later and one could be married as soon as they entered puberty"
mark bey: I agree with this statemen, the bible and most relgions were invented before the devopment of science came along that could explain lifes mysteries. That is why the religous folks still are rejecting evolution even as the evidence mounts it is also why religious folks following the timeline of the bible when that has been proven inacurate by science.
When someones mother died oneday who appeared to be healthy the day before they coldnt explain because they didnt have science or mircroscopes to see and understand the flu (or any other type of virus) which can and does kill people (even in 2007)who appear ot be healthy within days.
Dang mark, every time I answer something, you come with something else I feel compelled to clarify:
You wrote: mark bey: I agree with this statemen, the bible and most relgions were invented before the devopment of science came along that could explain lifes mysteries.
I don’t think the intent, of Moses in writing Genesis for example, was to “explain” lifes mysteries. Moses “who knew as much science as the Egyptians had at that time BTW” was trying to communicate a few principles, that being: God created humanity (not how), humanity screwed up and lost their relationship with God, God made friends with Abraham, and that’s where the Israelites came from, leading to Exodus. It really isn’t that hard to understand. Only religious zealots have a stake at trying to measure how much time was between Adam and Moses, since the communication by Moses was not meant to be a literal time line as the “days” (7) of God, in context with scripture, generally are not 24 hour days, but can be a variable of great lengths of time with God.
You also wrote: “That is why the religous folks still are rejecting evolution”
The THEORY of evolution, being a theory, really is of no consequence to what the Bible is communicating. It can speculate on HOW humanity got here (since again, it is the THEORY of evolution, not the “FACT” of evolution) but it cannot tell us WHY in any case.
@Mark:
Boy, you like to give a brotha a lot to write about lol, let’s go over a few things:
You wrote: “mark bey: You only agree that christianity and christ isnt a fairytale.
No I do not. I don’t believe any religion is a fairy tale, I believe that all the religious traditions are very real social constructs, faith systems, that people are part of out of tradition, need for companions, cultural identity, political affiliation, or in some cases, a search for God. It would be a denial of this social reality to refer to ANY religion as a fairy tale.
You continue, but now the claim of fairytale is moved to the text of scripture as opposed to “religion”:
“The bible claims that anyone who does not believe in christ will not go to heaven which would make any holy book or religion that doesn’t believe that christ is the son of god a fairytale by the bibles own implication.”
Not at all, by implication it means that any assertion by any other religious text that Jesus is NOT who the Bible declares He is, are factually WRONG on that point of Doctrine, (i.e. the Talmud, the Book of Mormon or the Quran since I recall that they are mention Jesus in some context) not “fairy tales”.
You wrote: “Which implies to my understanding that according to christians, judism, Islam, hinduism, ect are not the word of god.”
I can’t speak to “your” understanding of this issue, as for mine, the Torah (Essential to Judaism) IS considered the Word of God within the Christian tradition, the Talmud, which is Rabbinical opinions is Not. Factually, Judaism, claims that the New Testament is NOT the word of God.
As for the Qu’ran, it is considered NOT the Word of God (The Father of Jesus) as their God does not have a son, so it maybe the “word” of THEIR god, but not ours.
As for the Vedic writings of Hinduism, those words are by THEIR definition NOT the Word of the Christian God (The Father of Jesus) BUT the Words of their gods (Krishna or Vishnu).
You continue with: “To my thinking this means if you are a christian then by default you consider all other religions not true or fairytales to use my language.”
Not at all, I consider them to be “Other religious traditions” simple as that, we may have things in common, but by EACH of our definitions, we do not serve the same deity. To us, we know there are MANY gods, but we serve, the God of our savior, our Father, El Shaddai Elohim Adonai. I hope that clears it up for you a bit.
You go on in regard to the Bible: “Also exactly which bible amongst the more than 20 differnt versions is the truth or " word or god". How do we know that the king james version of the bible is the truth vs the catholic or jehova witness version of the bible.”
O.K., I’ll give you the short answer because this really becomes a different discussion that could take up a great deal of space.
My Bible of choice for example (of the Ethiopic tradition) has the largest canon (Books accepted), there is the Catholic Canon, the Orthodox Canon and the Protestant Canon. There are many different translations of these canons, however they agree on essential doctrines (i.e., The virgin birth, the resurrection, the need for repentance of sin, the deity of Christ) that being said, though there maybe differences in some wording, the overall ideas and overarching themes of sin, deliverance and grace are clear IN ALL THOSE VERSIONS. Which after all, is the point of the Bible. That is why though the sects of the Catholic traditions, the Coptic traditions, the Protestant traditions and the Orthodox traditions consider each others at base, CHRISTIANS by definition.
Whereas, The Jehovah’s Witness, are not considered “Christians” by the aforementioned traditions, because factually, their version of the “Bible” is a purposed mistranslation which denies one or more of the key essential doctrines of the Christian faith accepted by the aforementioned traditions that make up the collective church.
Let me pause here and submit this for your consideration, before I continue on.
Peace
Look Mark, I feel you on some things, but you wrote:
“mark bey: If Jesus were around today I think (giving the reality of what actually is happening) he would advise people to wait until marraige but if they didnt wait I think he would advise them to practice safe sex.”
What do you base this assertion on? From the best reliable source of information regarding ANYTHING Jesus said, in regard to the issue He would say:
Matthew 4: 17 “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Matthew 9.13 “I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Mark 1.15 “And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Luke 13.3 “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
So it seems pretty clear (no matter which translation you read from) REPENT is what he would say about fornication.
Jesus clearly says to REPENT. This is not to apologize or only to ask forgiveness, this is
to TURN from sinful behavior, again Strong’s Exhaustive:
Strong's Number: 3340
Transliterated: metanoeo
Phonetic: met-an-o-eh'-o
Text: from 3326 and 3539; change of mind, the state of changing any or all of the
elements composing ones life, to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider
(morally, feel compunction): --repent.
“The state of changing any or all of the elements composing ones life”, that is very clear.
This is not to say that we ridicule those in sin, for all have sinned and come
short of the Glory of God, yet there is a difference between one sinning and truly
repenting and one in a life of UNREPENTIVE sin. This is what Jesus would say to those who practice premarital sex: REPENT and BELIEVE the Gospel.
It is intellectually fraudulent to suggest JESUS would say Practice safe sex.
Brotha DJ thank you for comments I am enjoying this debate I will respond when I get back from lunch.
Dj Adam
"
I don’t think the intent, of Moses in writing Genesis for example, was to “explain” lifes mysteries. Moses “who knew as much science as the Egyptians had at that time"
mark bey: This may be true but human biengs have a natural curiosity to know why, where and how things came into bieng. Also how can you posibly know that mosses knew as much of the science that the egyptians had. You are making assumptions unless the the bible states this.
" since the communication by Moses was not meant to be a literal time line as the “days” (7) of God, in context with scripture, generally are not 24 hour days, but can be a variable of great lengths of time with God."
mark bey:
1) does the bible say this specifically as it relates to the mosses because if it dosent you are assuming things the bible does not say.
2) Ok this is where religion really starts to get into fairytalism. If a day is not 24 hours but actually a month or a year then why not call it a month or year it would make it a lot more easy for our limited minds to understand.
DJ adam
" The THEORY of evolution, being a theory, really is of no consequence to what the Bible is communicating. It can speculate on HOW humanity got here (since again, it is the THEORY of evolution, not the “FACT” of evolution) but it cannot tell us WHY in any case."
mark bey:
As far as Im concerned thier is more proof that evolution is an accurate account of what happen than christianity. Over 100 years ago darwin presented evidence that man had evolved from apes and scientist have proven that man and chimpanzees share 98% of the same genetic make up.
Also if you watch how chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas raise thier and care for their young it is erily familar to how humans care for thier young. Also you can visably see a resemblance in apes and man in appearance and deffinately behavior.
Mark:
You wrote: “mark bey: This may be true but human biengs have a natural curiosity to know why, where and how things came into bieng. Also how can you posibly know that mosses knew as much of the science that the egyptians had. You are making assumptions unless the the bible states this.”
If Moses grew up in the royal house of Pharoah, it can be assumed he was educated as a prince in Egypt. Meaning that, though not a scientist, he would have been familiar with science, literature and mathematics as taught at that time. To say this is similar to assume that Prince Charles has been educated as the royal house of Windsor is normally educated, thereby familiar with the science, literature and mathematics of the time as taught in the United Kingdom, this is therefore an educated guess, a “theory” as you say.
You wrote: “mark bey: “1) does the bible say this specifically as it relates to the mosses because if it dosent you are assuming things the bible does not say.”
You presume a bit much there Mark, The scripture in the Bible must be taken in Context with scripture from the Bible. If the world was stated in Genesis to be created in 7 days, and in Job we are told that time does not mean what it does to man to God, and Peter states that a day with the Lord is LIKE a thousand for a human, all of that in must be taken in context with each other, that is proper hermeneutic principle to be applied in biblical exegesis. That being said, it is not an assumption to conclude that the 7 days that Moses communicated was NOT meant to be a literal schedule in measuring the time it took to create the universe.
You continue: “ Ok this is where religion really starts to get into fairytalism. If a day is not 24 hours but actually a month or a year then why not call it a month or year it would make it a lot more easy for our limited minds to understand.”
I don’t see the confusion, it is called metaphor and analogy. Not uncommon in most forms of literature taught to the average 6th grader.
I said: “The THEORY of evolution, being a theory, really is of no consequence to what the Bible is communicating. It can speculate on HOW humanity got here (since again, it is the THEORY of evolution, not the “FACT” of evolution) but it cannot tell us WHY in any case."
You replied: “mark bey: As far as Im concerned thier is more proof that evolution is an accurate account of what happen than christianity.”
Well, we just have to disagree here. I don’t doubt that man and Chimp share DNA, all living things do, I have no problem with scientific “fact”, I do have a problem with “Scientifc theory” presented as "fact", further, I find it ironic that people who take said theories as fact, have a hard time with faith or belief in something that they cannot empiraclly prove, as they have faith in something they cannot empirically prove in many of the postulates the accept.
You wrote: “Also if you watch how chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas raise thier and care for their young it is erily familar to how humans care for thier young.”
And, you can watch a male chimpanzee go up to a female chimp, kill her child and mate with her, which would be considered infanticide and rape in our civilized cultures (and even in our uncivilized cultures if one assumes less developed civilizations are “uncivilized”, I do not.) You seem eager to focus on superficial physical and temporal similarities that we have with other mammals and primates, thereby you miss the serious differences and the implications of them there of.
" No I do not. I don’t believe any religion is a fairy tale, I believe that all the religious traditions are very real social constructs, faith systems, that people are part of out of tradition, need for companions, cultural identity, political affiliation, or in some cases, a search for God. It would be a denial of this social reality to refer to ANY religion as a fairy tale."
mark bey: DJ your making this too easy, christianity, islam, judism and many other different religions all claim to be inspired by or the word of god and yet they all say something differnt.
All of the different religions cannot be an accurate account of what actually has gone down in the world,especailly if several different religions claim that folks will go hell if a person dosent believe in that particular religion.
If Islam is an accurate account of what happen and actually is gods word well by default any other religion that is different is a fairytale.
You cannot have two different religions claiming to be the word of god, then claiming that only they lead to salvation and yet both of them be true that is ridicilous.
I can agree with you from the standpoint that many different have existed for a long time,so thier existence is not a fairytale.
However you can have philosphies that contridict each one another all be an accurant account of how the world unfolded which many religions that contridict each other claim to be.
DJ adam
" Not at all, by implication it means that any assertion by any other religious text that Jesus is NOT who the Bible declares He is, are factually WRONG on that point of Doctrine, (i.e. the Talmud, the Book of Mormon or the Quran since I recall that they are mention Jesus in some context) not “fairy tales”."
mark bey: Thier are many differnt relgions that dont even mention jesus, such as the religion that ghandi followed i will never believe that ghandi or even malcolm x are going to hell because they dont beleive that Jesus was the son of god.
Please explain to me which of the various bibles contains the actual word of god that will get you to heaven.
Also if god is all powerful and he wants us to read, learn and live his word well then I cannot understand why he would allow different religions that arent his word and wont get you to haven to even exist.
If beliving in Islam wont get you to heaven then why allow a lie to exist that is a confusing situation.
It has been my expierence in life that if you want lots of different people to understand your message then you better be consistant with that message.
Having various different religions all claiming to be THE word of god is not a consistant message and the fact that thier are many believer of those various religions which contridict one another tells you that people can be mislead as to the actual word of god.
"
If Moses grew up in the royal house of Pharoah, it can be assumed he was educated as a prince in Egypt. "
mark bey: No it cannot assumed, that the pharoahs and thier children were schooled in the knowledge of the priesthood. Also the key word is assume you dont have proof.
" To say this is similar to assume that Prince Charles has been educated as the royal house of Windsor is normally educated, thereby familiar with the science, literature and mathematics of the time as taught in the United Kingdom, this is therefore an educated guess, a “theory” as you say."
mark bey: DJ your making this too easy you can go online and find out how the kings and queens of england were educated for at least the last 300 years and even what they were educated in.
Thier is no documentation that I know of that says that mosses was educated in the things you said he was. YOU ARE MAKING ASSUMPTIONS that you have not a single solitary shred of proof for.
DJ adam
I don’t see the confusion, it is called metaphor and analogy. Not uncommon in most forms of literature taught to the average 6th grader."
mark bey: The problem with what you said is that you and others claim the bible to be "TRUTH" and an accurate account of how things unfolded on earth not literature .
It makes no sense at all to claim something happened in seven days when each of those days could have been as long as a thousands years it only breeds confusion as their is much debate about how long it took for god to create the earth even amongst christian scholars.
History books do not use metaphors to explain the how, what, where and when of how things have unfolded on planet earth.
" Well, we just have to disagree here. I don’t doubt that man and Chimp share DNA, all living things do, I have no problem with scientific “fact”, I do have a problem with “Scientifc theory” presented as "fact", further, I find it ironic that people who take said theories as fact, have a hard time with faith or belief in something that they cannot empiraclly prove, as they have faith in something they cannot empirically prove in many of the postulates the accept."
mark bey: This statement right here is one of the main reasons I got problems with all religion. Religion (including christianity) has history of suppresing/denying the science even when it can be proven they say things such as it cant be proven. A classic example is the catholic church threatening to kill capernicus because of his teaching that the sun revolved around the earth. Capirnicus was bassing his argument on scientific observation that could be observed and replicated but sense it didnt go along with the churches doctrine at the time they made an argument similar to the one you are now making as to why capernicus was wrong when he was right.
Hello again Mark:
I wrote:
“If Moses grew up in the royal house of Pharoah, it can be assumed he was educated as a prince in Egypt. "
You replied: “mark bey: No it cannot assumed, that the pharoahs and thier children were schooled in the knowledge of the priesthood.”
It can be ASSUMED, it cannot be stated as fact, it is a presupposition that you can either accept or reject. As well, “priesthood”? wrong words to choose there, looking at Aaron and his biblically documented exchanges with the priest of the Egyptian gods, seems like they walked in similar forms of education and understanding.
Again, that is a presumption based on the evidence we have.
You wrote: “mark bey: DJ your making this too easy, christianity, islam, judism and many other different religions all claim to be inspired by or the word of god and yet they all say something differnt.”
You are complicating something that is very simple, and you are utilizing un true presuppositions to make a point that cannot be made if we look at Christianity, Islam and Judaism in the proper historical and theological context, as such:
Christianity accepts the Jewish Bible, The Tanakh, which is the Law (Torah), Prophets (Nevi’im) and the Writings (Ketivum) as the WORD OF GOD.
Judaism accepts the Jewish Bible, The Tanakh, which is the Law (Torah), Prophets (Nevi’im) and the Writings (Ketivum) as the WORD OF GOD.
Judaism rejects the New Testament as the Word of God
Islam rejects the Tanakh and the New Testament by definition of the essential doctrines of their faith.
The Tanakh states that Isacc was the chosen son of Abraham, Islamic doctrine and the Qu’ran state that Ishmael was, therefore, the Quran being the later, rejects the former.
The New Testament states that Jesus is the ONLY begotten son of God, Islamic doctrine and the Qu’ran state that God does not beget, therefore, the Quran being the later, rejects the former.
So, it appears that the New testament is rejected by Islam and those of the faith of Judaism. The God of the Quran is not the God of the New Testament by mutual definition, as that God, has a son named JESUS.
“All of the different religions cannot be an accurate account of what actually has gone down in the world,especailly if several different religions claim that folks will go hell if a person dosent believe in that particular religion.”
No, that means that all of them cannot be right on that point, some of them, if not all of them are incorrect based on those mutual presuppositions logically. So, they have their “FAITH” in what happens in the afterlife, as do we, who is correct, only time will tell, until then it is faith and belief.
“If Islam is an accurate account of what happen and actually is gods word well by default any other religion that is different is a fairytale.”
Again, apples and oranges. We could in fact enter the Kingdom of our God, and they could end up in “Heaven” with virgins serving them, since their god is not ours, as our Father has a son named Jesus.
“You cannot have two different religions claiming to be the word of god, then claiming that only they lead to salvation and yet both of them be true that is ridicilous.”
That depends, are they talking about the same God? If they are, then one is wrong or one is right, or both are wrong.
“However you can have philosphies that contridict each one another all be an accurant account of how the world unfolded which many religions that contridict each other claim to be.”
Now when we are discussing the creation of our temporal and spatial universe, and history, that, is a matter of subjective understanding, meaning, different perspectives on the events being reported, therefore, not necessarily a matter of true or false, just matters of perspective. It would be best to see where the intersect to determine truth.
I wrote: “Not at all, by implication it means that any assertion by any other religious text that Jesus is NOT who the Bible declares He is, are factually WRONG on that point of Doctrine, (i.e. the Talmud, the Book of Mormon or the Quran since I recall that they are mention Jesus in some context) not “fairy tales”."
mark bey: Thier are many differnt relgions that dont even mention jesus,
The British royal Military Museumm in London DOES NOT Mention the Revelutionary war, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen,
“such as the religion that ghandi followed i will never believe that ghandi or even malcolm x are going to hell because they dont beleive that Jesus was the son of god. “
I don’t believe I said that they were, I do believe what the Bible says, if they did not receive the Gospel, they will not enter the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of God which will be on earth as the Bible also states, that God being the God who is the father of Jesus. If they go to hell, is between them and God.
“Please explain to me which of the various bibles contains the actual word of god that will get you to heaven.”
All of the canons accepted by the Catholic traditions, the Protestant Traditions, the Orthodox traditions and the Coptic traditions, pick one that you understand best.
“Also if god is all powerful and he wants us to read, learn and live his word well then I cannot understand why he would allow different religions that arent his word and wont get you to haven to even exist.”
Imperfect world by man’s actions, religions are of MEN, the Gospel of the Kingdom is from GOD. TRUTH is given to those who would receive it. And God reveals by HIS SPIRIT, the Bible is merely a guide.
“If beliving in Islam wont get you to heaven then why allow a lie to exist that is a confusing situation.”
I don’t see confusion, I see that a person should seek truth and make their choice in this world in regard to what they expect in the next (if they believe there is a next).
“It has been my expierence in life that if you want lots of different people to understand your message then you better be consistant with that message.”
Jesus is pretty clear AND consistent on His message, I suggest one start with Matthew and read through John.
“Having various different religions all claiming to be THE word of god is not a consistant message and the fact that thier are many believer of those various religions which contridict one another tells you that people can be mislead as to the actual word of god.”
Seek God in Spirit and in TRTH and not religion, I am confident He reveals Himself to those who seek TRUTH above and inspite of religions.
Hello again Mark:
I wrote:
“I don’t see the confusion, it is called metaphor and analogy. Not uncommon in most forms of literature taught to the average 6th grader."
your replied: “mark bey: The problem with what you said is that you and others claim the bible to be "TRUTH" and an accurate account of how things unfolded on earth not literature .”
Please stop assuming what I claim or believe. I believe The Bible is TRUTH, however, I don’t believe nor see where the Bible claims to be telling us EXACTLY how the earth was created, it tells us WHO created it.
“It makes no sense at all to claim something happened in seven days when each of those days could have been as long as a thousands years it only breeds confusion as their is much debate about how long it took for god to create the earth even amongst christian scholars.”
Now you are creating a strawman, I told you what those 7 days are communicating in context with scripture, if you wish to believe otherwise, that is your choice. We can discuss what I believe and why I believe it, I can’t speak for Christian scholars that ignore simple hermeneutic principles so that they can hold on to what I see as a clear error of understanding.
“History books do not use metaphors to explain the how, what, where and when of how things have unfolded on planet earth.”
Who said Genesis was written to be a Historical account of the creation of the universe? Genesis is part of the books of LAW (the Torah), the history in it, nowhere says: “These were 7 – 24 hour periods we are talking about.
I wrote:
" Well, we just have to disagree here. I don’t doubt that man and Chimp share DNA, all living things do, I have no problem with scientific “fact”, I do have a problem with “Scientific theory” presented as "fact", further, I find it ironic that people who take said theories as fact, have a hard time with faith or belief in something that they cannot empirically prove, as they have faith in something they cannot empirically prove in many of the postulates the accept."
You replied mark bey: “This statement right here is one of the main reasons I got problems with all religion. Religion (including christianity) has history of suppresing/denying the science even when it can be proven they say things such as it cant be proven. “
Who is denying science, Mark, you are discussing this with me, not the Pope who jailed Galielio, I don’t have a problem with Science, I just know the difference between FACT and THEORY. They call it the Theory of evolution BECAUSE it IS a THEORY.
You gave me a FACT about Chimpanzees that showed how they were alike with Humans, I gave you a FACT that showed hoe they are different from Humans.
" And, you can watch a male chimpanzee go up to a female chimp, kill her child and mate with her, which would be considered infanticide and rape in our civilized cultures (and even in our uncivilized cultures if one assumes less developed civilizations are “uncivilized”, I do not.) "
mark bey: Male chimps do sometimes behave in the way you indicated, but so do male and female humans. Also nothing a chimp could ever do could be more even remotely close to what the Nazis, Stallin or Vlad the IMpaler did to other human biengs. Where talking about 25 million plus people bieng murdured. I have never heard of a chimpanzees(or even a group of them) murduring 25 million people. Also their are numerous examples of human culture that does not fit the deffination of civilized that you presented. Thats a fact.
You seem eager to focus on superficial physical and temporal similarities that we have with other mammals and primates, thereby you miss the serious differences and the implications of them there of.
mark bey: This is an assumption I only mention the connection between people and apes once. Also I do not miss the differences between man, apes and any other animal. I think you ignore the actual facts of the similarities.
Also I find it very odd that it is always religious folk who are the last to accept scientific theories that gain the general acceptance of the non religious public a prime example of this is the catholic church threatening capernicus who was later proven correct.
excellent debate Dj I hate to thrash you keep comming back for more.
Just joking. Listening my man I will respond to this in more detail tonight when I get home.
Please do not think because I am rigirously debating you I have got personal animosity towards you becasause I dont.
I actually think highly of you and share many oppinions and beleifs similar to yours other than religion.
Mark:
I wrote:
“And, you can watch a male chimpanzee go up to a female chimp, kill her child and mate with her, which would be considered infanticide and rape in our civilized cultures (and even in our uncivilized cultures if one assumes less developed civilizations are “uncivilized”, I do not.) "
You replied: mark bey: Male chimps do sometimes behave in the way you indicated, but so do male and female humans.
They sure do, which Scripture is very clear at pointing out, WE (Humanity) have a natural and temporal nature just like any other animal. UNLIKE the Chimps, JESUS seems to indicate that such behavior is UNACCPETABLE to those of US who are the expressed image of God. A Chimp, faces no consequence by the community for such action and has no Moral compunction or mandate given to do otherwise, a Human does, especially one who understands their spiritual relation to God and not just their physical similarities to other primates.
I wrote:
“You seem eager to focus on superficial physical and temporal similarities that we have with other mammals and primates, thereby you miss the serious differences and the implications of them there of.”
mark bey: This is an assumption I only mention the connection between people and apes once. Also I do not miss the differences between man, apes and any other animal. I think you ignore the actual facts of the similarities.
The similarities are obvious and I don’t recall denying them, but they are physical and superficial, as by definition, by the Spirit of God, we strive to emulate our godly nature NOT give in to and bask in our physical / animal / natural nature, which is the point of spiritual rebirth.
“Also I find it very odd that it is always religious folk who are the last to accept scientific theories that gain the general acceptance of the non religious public a prime example of this is the catholic church threatening capernicus who was later proven correct.”
And I find it even odder that when a scientific theory is disproven (i.e. that Mongolid, Caucazoid, Negroid origins of humanity theory that was generally accepted up until the mid to late eighties) and a FACTS that agree with scripture (as it is now factual the origins of humanity rest in One man and One woman from Africa) those who worship man and science seem to act like they are telling us something NEW.
“Please do not think because I am rigirously debating you I have got personal animosity towards you becasause I dont.”
Oh not at all, I enjoy your questions and perspectives you present, I don’t see it as debate just discussion.
“I actually think highly of you and share many oppinions and beleifs similar to yours other than religion.”
Thanks, I also appreciate your opinions and think highly of you, you are very intelligent and passionate about your positions.
A preacher promoting fornication. Are you out of your mind? If anyone here wants to talk about this nonsense, yuo can call me anytime after 6:00 p.m. 919/278-8911 Somebody has to take a stand against sin.
Anon if you are so wise and thoughtful then you should post your name, and preachers advising a population of people being devestated by aids, fatherless kids and children born out of wedlock to use condoms if they are going to have sex before marraige (which black people proven they are going to do) is what needs to happen to save lives.
Also unless you waited until you were married to have sex you aint taking a stand against jack and please point me to the testimonials of the black preachers and how they waited until they were married to have sex. Oh wait their are not, why because you fake and hypocritical preachers are getting their freak on as much as anyone else in the community.
Lastly if your so principled about taking stands try posting under your name instead anon which is womanly and I dont need to call you just come on back over here and say something else stupid so I can reeducate your hypocritical as@.
Whatever you have been doing to take a stand against sin aint been working my silly and ignorant friend perhaps you hypocritical christians need to try something else.
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